Was *Jin Yong* biased in favor of Yeung Gor over Gwok Jing?

[Exodus]

and a "few others" what it should have been was he have never such eyes except the great condor hero

[flyingfox2002]

HSDS 2nd edition, chapter 24:

After saying this, he used
his palms to transfer his Art of 9 Yang chi into Zhang Sanfeng's body.
At that moment, Zhang Sanfeng felt that the chi emitting from his palms
to be so powerful that it without comparison in the whole world. Though
it was far from being as refined as his own, the chi was firmly grounded
yet soft and was limitless. He started and stared into Zhang Wuji's
face. Only to see that his eyes did not shine brightly but had a soft,
crystal-like layer in them. This meant that his inner power had reached
the ultimate level. Except for his master Reverend Jue Yuan and Hero Guo
Jing and a few others, he has never seen the same in anybody else. Of
the top experts of the era, except for himself, he can think of no other
person who has achieved this stage.

Thanks for the passage. I think he must've seen into the Elites' eyes at another time other than their first meeting. I really don't think he had looked that closely at the ROCH Elites' eyes at that time for the reason I had posted earlier.
----------

Edit: I took a look at the Chinese text. There's a small difference in translation:
只觉掌心中传来这股力道雄强无比，虽然远不及自己内力的精纯醇正，但泊泊然、绵绵然，直是无止无歇、无穷无 尽，一惊之下，定睛往张无忌脸上瞧去，只见他目光中不露光华，却隐隐然有一层温润晶莹之意，显得内功已到绝 顶之境，生平所遇人物，只有本师觉远大师、大侠郭靖等寥寥数人，才有这等修为，至于当世高人，除了自己之外 ，实想不起再有第二人能臻此境界。

The original does not say that Z3F had seen the same soft crystal eyes in only those people. It says that of all the people Z3F had met in his lifetime, only Jue Yue, Guo Jing, and a few others had achieved the ultimate level. That's why I was suspicious, because as I wrote before, it's very unlikely Z3F had studied the Elites' eyes at the end of ROCH.

[PJ]

HSDS 2nd edition, chapter 24:

After saying this, he used
his palms to transfer his Art of 9 Yang chi into Zhang Sanfeng's body.
At that moment, Zhang Sanfeng felt that the chi emitting from his palms
to be so powerful that it without comparison in the whole world. Though
it was far from being as refined as his own, the chi was firmly grounded
yet soft and was limitless. He started and stared into Zhang Wuji's
face. Only to see that his eyes did not shine brightly but had a soft,
crystal-like layer in them. This meant that his inner power had reached
the ultimate level. Except for his master Reverend Jue Yuan and Hero Guo
Jing and a few others, he has never seen the same in anybody else. Of
the top experts of the era, except for himself, he can think of no other
person who has achieved this stage.

Next time, can you please get into the habit of giving some context as to why you're quoting a long passage from the novel (i.e. what purpose is this quote serving; which message does it correspond to)?

[Snafu3721]

This thread has become a derivative comparison of YG vs GJ in terms of Martial Arts.

But I guess in order to "answer" the original question that began this thread: whether JY was in favor of YG over GJ, one has to ask-- in what sense?

Did JY favor YG as a character in terms of luck? In terms of frequent exposure? In terms of skill?

Obviously, JY favored XZ and DY when it came to luck in TLBB. But as far as LOCH and ROCH goes, I don't really think JY made any portrayals that he "favored" YG in any particular way.

Lets not discuss who would win in a fight or who had what lvl of internal power, but rather who benefited from circumstance. Both had the fortune of being exposed to Greats level martial arts at a young age. Both were able to be the sole heir to a set of Martial Arts of awesome power (GJ had the full 9-Yin and YG found DGQB's tomb). They both were forced into many situations that gave them battle experience. Both met beautiful women who made wonderful lovers/wives. And both received acclaim for their bravery and feats, allowing them to be inaugurated into the MA allstar Hall of Fame.

So in a way, YG and GJ were the typical traditional hero whereupon they had an unfortunate past that lead to greatness.

[flyingfox2002]

This thread has become a derivative comparison of YG vs GJ in terms of Martial Arts.

But I guess in order to "answer" the original question that began this thread: whether JY was in favor of YG over GJ, one has to ask-- in what sense?

Did JY favor YG as a character in terms of luck? In terms of frequent exposure? In terms of skill?

Obviously, JY favored XZ and DY when it came to luck in TLBB. But as far as LOCH and ROCH goes, I don't really think JY made any portrayals that he "favored" YG in any particular way.

Lets not discuss who would win in a fight or who had what lvl of internal power, but rather who benefited from circumstance. Both had the fortune of being exposed to Greats level martial arts at a young age. Both were able to be the sole heir to a set of Martial Arts of awesome power (GJ had the full 9-Yin and YG found DGQB's tomb). They both were forced into many situations that gave them battle experience. Both met beautiful women who made wonderful lovers/wives. And both received acclaim for their bravery and feats, allowing them to be inaugurated into the MA allstar Hall of Fame.

So in a way, YG and GJ were the typical traditional hero whereupon they had an unfortunate past that lead to greatness.

As readers, we can always find somethingss that one protagonist in one story had better or worse than another protagonist in another story. It doesn't mean the author is biased. It just means he actually wrote two different novels, not just write the same one only with changes in character names.

[Trien Chieu]

On the other hand, Gwok Jing is better set up for respect from grown up, straight, regular guys.

But it's probably better to be mooned over by teenaged girls.

Respectable is fine, but a man hasn't lived until he's been mooned over by teenaged girls.

Ken, I think this is your fantasy
and obviously your fantasy still hasn't fulfill...
I would rather live a life of Guo Jing over YG anytime. GJ had much better life....

[Snafu3721]

I would rather live a life of Guo Jing over YG anytime. GJ had much better life....

That's relative =P.

For GJ:

1) Loosing his father to a horrible hoard of Jin soldiers prior to birth.

2) Mother was basically tortured in the desert and malnourished up to GJ's conception.

3) Was forced to fight the one person he feels responsible for saving (YK).

4) Getting betrayed by this same person and nearly looses his life.

5) Loosing 6 of his dear masters. (A master is like father in those days)

6) Having to fend his country from the very same people that raised and loved him (the Mongols)

7) Mom suicides in front of his eyes

8) Also thought he had lost the love of his life (When HR wouldn't reveal herself to him)

9) Spends life trying to defend China and faces the political/military pressures on daily basis

10) Dies prematurely (i.e. not from old age)... and probably had to witness most of family, including in laws, die in front of his eyes.

___________________________

As for YG...

He lived a relatively good life. Most of the hardships he endures are caused by himself rather than circumstance.

The hardest things I can imagine for him is having his lover was raped. And perhaps the 16 yr separation. But that wasn't so bad since he thought XLN was undergoing treatment to cure her poison... whereas GJ thought HR had actually died and would never see her again.

Other than that, most of his "difficulties" were self induced due to his stubborn and bratty attitude. Loosing his arm was partly his own fault for aggrivating GF. I agree GF is annoying, but YG did slap her across the face. I mean, that's just not a smart thing to do. The whole situation could've been avoided if YG had just calmed down and ignored GF in the first place. (Re-read the section and you'll find YG is just as at fault)

And being mistreated at QZ sect was because he is a little brat. GJ as a child would have never said the things YG said to the Taoists at the gate.

[flyingfox2002]

That's relative =P.

For GJ:

1) Loosing his father to a horrible hoard of Jin soldiers prior to birth.

2) Mother was basically tortured in the desert and malnourished up to GJ's conception.

3) Was forced to fight the one person he feels responsible for saving (YK).

4) Getting betrayed by this same person and nearly looses his life.

5) Loosing 6 of his dear masters. (A master is like father in those days)

6) Having to fend his country from the very same people that raised and loved him (the Mongols)

7) Mom suicides in front of his eyes

8) Also thought he had lost the love of his life (When HR wouldn't reveal herself to him)

9) Spends life trying to defend China and faces the political/military pressures on daily basis

10) Dies prematurely (i.e. not from old age)... and probably had to witness most of family, including in laws, die in front of his eyes.

___________________________

As for YG...

He lived a relatively good life. Most of the hardships he endures are caused by himself rather than circumstance.

The hardest things I can imagine for him is having his lover was raped. And perhaps the 16 yr separation. But that wasn't so bad since he thought XLN was undergoing treatment to cure her poison... whereas GJ thought HR had actually died and would never see her again.

Other than that, most of his "difficulties" were self induced due to his stubborn and bratty attitude. Loosing his arm was partly his own fault for aggrivating GF. I agree GF is annoying, but YG did slap her across the face. I mean, that's just not a smart thing to do. The whole situation could've been avoided if YG had just calmed down and ignored GF in the first place. (Re-read the section and you'll find YG is just as at fault)

And being mistreated at QZ sect was because he is a little brat. GJ as a child would have never said the things YG said to the Taoists at the gate.

LOL. Are you sure you have read ROCH? I doubt you understand the YG character even if you have read the book.

You think the worst thing to happen to him was XLN being raped? It doesn't even matter to him. He loves XLN unconditionally. See the exchange at ZhuanZhen Sect when her rape is revealed.

And after you basically sacrificed yourself to save two brothers who were in-fighting for some bratty byatch, and only lived cuz you were lucky that one poison suppressed another poison (something that seems to only happens in fiction), then this same bratty byatch is yelling at you for embarrassing her and accusing the person you love the most of conspiring to steal a baby that you and she just used all your might to protect, AND then the same byatch also insinuates with contempt that your beloved is banging some cownose, CAN YOU remain calm? It was HIS fault for "aggravating" GF???

You should reread the passage you tell people to read. YG TRIED to be calm. It is when that byatch switched to attacking XLN that he started to get mad. Do YOU sit around relaxing while people are viciously attacking your mom? Or your gf/bf?

And yes, young YG's rebel personality does get him in trouble with the elders who like bossing kids around, but he was a 14 year old KID, for god's sake. So you expect a kid to be more mature than his adult master, a supposed enlightened taoist? He was an annoying rebel kid, but he didn't deserved to be set up to be beaten up and humiliated by his own master.

The kind of BS YG gets slapped on him on this forum is unbelievable.

[ChanceEncounter]

LOL. Are you sure you have read ROCH? I doubt you understand the YG character even if you have read the book.

You think the worst thing to happen to him was XLN being raped? It doesn't even matter to him. He loves XLN unconditionally. See the exchange at ZhuanZhen Sect when her rape is revealed.

And after you basically sacrificed yourself to save two brothers who were in-fighting for some bratty byatch, and only lived cuz you were lucky that one poison suppressed another poison (something that seems to only happens in fiction), then this same bratty byatch is yelling at you for embarrassing her and accusing the person you love the most of conspiring to steal a baby that you and she just used all your might to protect, AND then the same byatch also insinuates with contempt that your beloved is banging some cownose, CAN YOU remain calm? It was HIS fault for "aggravating" GF???

You should reread the passage you tell people to read. YG TRIED to be calm. It is when that byatch switched to attacking XLN that he started to get mad. Do YOU sit around relaxing while people are viciously attacking your mom? Or your gf/bf?

And yes, young YG's rebel personality does get him in trouble with the elders who like bossing kids around, but he was a 14 year old KID, for god's sake. So you expect a kid to be more mature than his adult master, a supposed enlightened taoist? He was an annoying rebel kid, but he didn't deserved to be set up to be beaten up and humiliated by his own master.

The kind of BS YG gets slapped on him on this forum is unbelievable.

I agree.

To say that most of his problems were caused by himself is a ridiculous statement. This isn't ZWJ's story, which revolves around his inability to choose between 4 women (which you could say was brought on by himself), YG did very little wrong. He was an intelligent and rebellious guy, but as he mentioned himself, he didn't hurt anybody. His problems were brought about by circumstance as much as it was his own fault.

As for GJ thinking Huang Rong was dead, he didn't go about 16 years separated from her, which was the result of GF's interference, who was much more the main villain than GWM.

YG lived "a relatively good life"? Are you kidding me?

[PJ]

he didn't hurt anybody.

I think he did "hurt" that one poor taoist, whom he dropped a bucket of sh!t on.

But that's about it

[kidd]

That's relative =P.
The hardest things I can imagine for him is having his lover was raped. And perhaps the 16 yr separation. But that wasn't so bad since he thought XLN was undergoing treatment to cure her poison... whereas GJ thought HR had actually died and would never see her again.

GJ endured the 'death' of Huang Rong for a short while, then she reappeared. Yang Guo waited for 16 years for Xiao Long Nv, then found out the 'XLN following Southern Sea Nun to heal her poison' was all a lie. Thinking that she died, he jumped down the cliff after her.

Both have gone through the suffering of thinking their love one died. But, YG has to wait an extra 16 years with all his hope built up of finally meeting his wife and then has that hope shattered (when he thought she died).

[flyingfox2002]

I think he did "hurt" that one poor taoist, whom he dropped a bucket of sh!t on.

But that's about it

That fat Taoist did get his vengence back, publicly giving YG a serious beating that could have severely injured or killed him if he didn't have the Toad Kungfu inner power protecting him. YG did land a desperation blow on that fat Toaist just like he did to one of the Wu bros.

Didn't that fat Taoist end up selling out the Zhuan Zhen Sect when Zhao Zhi Jing did so? It happend in ROCH2006, I don't remember if the same occurred in the novel.

[Ken Cheng]

Didn't that fat Taoist end up selling out the Zhuan Zhen Sect when Zhao Zhi Jing did so? It happend in ROCH2006, I don't remember if the same occurred in the novel.

It probably did, since ROCH '83 covered it as well.

The guy's name is Luk Ching Duk, I think. In ROCH '83, he wasn't fat; he was pencil-necked nerdy.

[flyingfox2002]

It probably did, since ROCH '83 covered it as well.

The guy's name is Luk Ching Duk, I think. In ROCH '83, he wasn't fat; he was pencil-necked nerdy.

He's fat in the novel and much bigger than YG (in the beginning anyway).

[Candide]

What's up with Ken and teenage girls? Trying to relive your high school experience, Kenny?

Anyway, having a lot of teenage girls all over him didn't do Yang Guo a lot of good as he was a 36 year-old virgin. It can also be argued that he got a bad deal for a wife. Yeah she's a pretty statue but that's about it.

Guo Jing OTOH got the best chick in JY universe. Hot, witty and the best cook ever? What more can a man ask for?

[Snafu3721]

LOL. Are you sure you have read ROCH? I doubt you understand the YG character even if you have read the book.

You think the worst thing to happen to him was XLN being raped? It doesn't even matter to him. He loves XLN unconditionally. See the exchange at ZhuanZhen Sect when her rape is revealed.

And after you basically sacrificed yourself to save two brothers who were in-fighting for some bratty byatch, and only lived cuz you were lucky that one poison suppressed another poison (something that seems to only happens in fiction), then this same bratty byatch is yelling at you for embarrassing her and accusing the person you love the most of conspiring to steal a baby that you and she just used all your might to protect, AND then the same byatch also insinuates with contempt that your beloved is banging some cownose, CAN YOU remain calm? It was HIS fault for "aggravating" GF???

You should reread the passage you tell people to read. YG TRIED to be calm. It is when that byatch switched to attacking XLN that he started to get mad. Do YOU sit around relaxing while people are viciously attacking your mom? Or your gf/bf?

And yes, young YG's rebel personality does get him in trouble with the elders who like bossing kids around, but he was a 14 year old KID, for god's sake. So you expect a kid to be more mature than his adult master, a supposed enlightened taoist? He was an annoying rebel kid, but he didn't deserved to be set up to be beaten up and humiliated by his own master.

The kind of BS YG gets slapped on him on this forum is unbelievable.

First off, I'm not saying one specifically had a better life than the other. I am just bringing to light that GJ's life wasn't easy as well.

As for the latter part of my comments when I discussed YG. I did read that passage and I still find it to be partly YG's fault. Stories are up for interpretation and so are their characters. Although in forum discussion we use as much factual references as we can, we can also interpret, like, dislike, or attribute causality based on numerous factors. I personally have always felt that YG got himself into a lot of his own mess.

As for getting his hand chopped off. You are referring to how YG was trying to save the two stupid Wu brothers. But to GF, that doesn't matter. You have to put yourself in GF's shoes as well. Basically, here is this punk kid who just chased away two potential lovers in your life (and you happen to like both of them). Then he insults your Chasity, not to mention he slaps you in the face almost hard enough to knock your teeth out. And for all you know, and based on what you've heard, this punk "stole" your baby sister and was about to trade her life for an antidote. You ask me how I would react if I was YG? Well I ask how would you react if you thought someone almost killed your sister? And had also insulted you and your potential 2 lovers?

Wuxia is full of "misunderstandings".... But these are the same misunderstandings that caused XF to KILL the love of his life. Or have a crazy women steal babies just to slaughter them (ed 2 Evil#2).

______________________________________________

As for the GJ loosing HR and YG loosing XLN:


I did forget there was a final moment where YG really did think XLN died. That must've been painful. so I correct myself on this portion

But as for the 16yrs separation: I think it's personal interpretation. As for me, if I found my ONE true love had died... I'd be shocked and depressed severely!!

Bit if I found out my lovers will be gone from me for 16 yrs to get healed, I will be sad but probably not as bad. Considering my current profession, I travel often and had to separate myself from my significant other months at a time. It's not THAT BAD.




@Flyingfox

RE the maturity of the 14 yr old kid. I've taught students martial arts before. If any of them, whether 14 or not, gave me that shit incident treatment... Then he is asking to live a very harsh and miserable life. I would actually still teach him martial arts, but I personally wouldn't give a crap about his development or well being. And getting his arse beat is a good thing. Hell, I got slapped and my assed kicked when I was young for doing things WAY less extreme compared to YG.

[duguxiaojing]

1) Loosing his father to a horrible hoard of Jin soldiers prior to birth.

2) Mother was basically tortured in the desert and malnourished up to GJ's conception.

3) Was forced to fight the one person he feels responsible for saving (YK).

4) Getting betrayed by this same person and nearly looses his life.

5) Loosing 6 of his dear masters. (A master is like father in those days)

6) Having to fend his country from the very same people that raised and loved him (the Mongols)

7) Mom suicides in front of his eyes

8) Also thought he had lost the love of his life (When HR wouldn't reveal herself to him)

9) Spends life trying to defend China and faces the political/military pressures on daily basis

10) Dies prematurely (i.e. not from old age)... and probably had to witness most of family, including in laws, die in front of his eyes.

1. YG's father dies as well and unlike GJ YG was an orphan for a good part of his early life. He survived by begging and stealing.

2. Bit of a stretch. They had a heard of goats by the time GJ was around..the were poor but they were surviving.

3. 4. This was only a big deal because GJ made it a big deal. He was not friends with YH by any means and hardly even new him. They were bound by their families friendship which GJ was unwilling to let go of.

5. Agreed. YG never had anything like this.

6. Didn't seem to bother him too much, with the exception of the people he was closest to. If anything GJ stood up for the people opressed. He himself berated the governement and stated that he had no loyalty towards them.

7. As mentioned before YG witnessed his mom's death and could do nothing. I'm not sure what that would do to a child emotionally.

8. This is the most far fetched one. I don't know how you could compare this to what YG faced...this was like XLN running away from YG for a couple of month's before he remet with hero at the Hero's gathering....nothing compared to the 16 years.

9-10. Can't argue with that really. He was definetly stressed from his position.


They both didn't have great lives and I honestly don't know how to compare them. However, stating that YG lived a "relatively good life" seems bs to me.

YG's childhood= shiat
Teens (some 4-5 years) with XLN in AT: Most likely the best part of his life in the novel
Young adult to 36= Constant pain and suffering.

First off, I'm not saying one specifically had a better life than the other. I am just bringing to light that GJ's life wasn't easy as well.

it seemed like you were from this statement:

As for YG...

He lived a relatively good life. Most of the hardships he endures are caused by himself rather than circumstance

As for getting his hand chopped off. You are referring to how YG was trying to save the two stupid Wu brothers. But to GF, that doesn't matter. You have to put yourself in GF's shoes as well. Basically, here is this punk kid who just chased away two potential lovers in your life (and you happen to like both of them). Then he insults your Chasity, not to mention he slaps you in the face almost hard enough to knock your teeth out. And for all you know, and based on what you've heard, this punk "stole" your baby sister and was about to trade her life for an antidote.

If we go by the novel's explanation, it was because YG did not show her any attention back.

She knew YG was as good as dead after sucking out the poision from the Wu brothers, yet she still went after him for chasing away the Wu losers..how am I suppose to feel bad for her? But lets put ourselves in her shoes as you suggested. From what GF knows YG saved her life(twice), the Wu brothers lives (twice), her mother's life and her father's life (twice). And yet she was still an ungrateful biyatch. Also the situation was explained to her, but she refused to accept it.
YG did not insult her chasity. More like the other way around. The reason YG slapped her was because she kept insulting XLN's chasity. YG ignored all her false accusations.

It seems like you are exagerating GJ's sufferings while dismissing or trying to explain all YG's.

[duguxiaojing]

RE the maturity of the 14 yr old kid. I've taught students martial arts before. If any of them, whether 14 or not, gave me that shit incident treatment... Then he is asking to live a very harsh and miserable life. I would actually still teach him martial arts, but I personally wouldn't give a crap about his development or well being. And getting his arse beat is a good thing. Hell, I got slapped and my assed kicked when I was young for doing things WAY less extreme compared to YG.

He was attacked and kidnapped...that's why he dumped a bucket of shite on the guys head. Later he was bullied and beat by the same people. How was he suppose to react? Those people already had a vendetta against YG and decided not to teach him anything. Completely diffrent situation. BTW...what did YG do so bad at 14? As a child he risked his life to save GF,CY and LWS...he was what 11 years old at the time? How come that has no merit, but you keep mentioned YG's "bad behavior".

[Snafu3721]

He was attacked and kidnapped...that's why he dumped a bucket of shite on the guys head. Later he was bullied and beat by the same people. How is he suppose to react? As a child he risked his life to save GF,CY and LWS...he was what 11 years old at the time? How come that has no merit, but you keep mentioned YG's "bad behavior". BTW...what did YG do so bad at 14?

I'm not saying YG isn't a good person and didn't do good things. I'm pointing out that there are causes and effects in the world. And because of his nature, many of the things that happened to him were a direct result of what he did.

QZ Taoists were not going to hurt YG. They "kidnapped" him because of the impeding threat on their sect. They fought GJ by accident thinking he was an enemy too. But it's YG's reaction to the situation that makes me say that he "caused" his own problems. He kept calling the Taoist's crappy at Martial Arts and he dumped shit on one of the Taoists.

The Taoists didn't do their best at recognizing friend or foe. But that's not easy when you think many suspicious enemies are attacking you.

[Snafu3721]

2. Bit of a stretch. They had a heard of goats by the time GJ was around..the were poor but they were surviving.

I was referring to how Duan Tian De abused GJ's mom prior to GJ's birth. And yes, she was malnourished.

7. As mentioned before YG witnessed his mom's death and could do nothing. I'm not sure what that would do to a child emotionally.

YG's mom died naturally. Comparing a suicide in front of your eyes versus a natural death is very different.

They both didn't have great lives and I honestly don't know how to compare them. However, stating that YG lived a "relatively good life" seems bs to me.

The key word is relative. I happen to choose GJ as a comparison because of the topic of this thread.

YG's childhood= shiat
Teens (some 4-5 years) with XLN in AT: Most likely the best part of his life in the novel
Young adult to 36= Constant pain and suffering.

16 yrs of suffering, followed by happy ending. Whereas Gj meets his demise. Some would say a tough life in the beginning followed by happy end is better than happy beginnings and a "not so happy" end. It's up to the person.

It seems like you are exagerating GJ's sufferings while dismissing or trying to explain all YG's.

Not exaggerating GJ's suffering. This whole discussion arose from a comment "I would rather live a life of Guo Jing over YG anytime. GJ had much better life...."

I just pointed out that it's RELATIVE. I don't find GJ's life much better than YG's. In fact, based on my OWN personality, I'd find GJ's life much harder. And if my posts seem like they are focusing on the negative, it's because we all know that both heroes had amazing chance encounters which were both equally awesome in their own right.