What if Xiao Feng were gay

[jadebunny9]

But unlike Xiao Feng, he hasn't really shown any signs that he was interested in men.

[Ren Ying Ying]

But unlike Xiao Feng, he hasn't really shown any signs that he was interested in men.

what about holding hands with xiao feng?

[jadebunny9]

what about holding hands with xiao feng?

When was this? And was this specifically in a romantic situation? Clasping hands while being sworn brothers does not count.

[Ren Ying Ying]

When was this? And was this specifically in a romantic situation? Clasping hands while being sworn brothers does not count.

actually, i think i dreamt it up. still, it wasn't actually uncommon for men to hold hands and sleep together back then

[jadebunny9]

Are you suggesting that they're all bi?

[Ren Ying Ying]

maybe they were just all in the closet...

you know, statistics say that 1/10 persons are homosexual...god knows how many are "bi".

[ChanceEncounter]

Statistically there are a lot fewer 'bi' people than gay or straight. We're not talking about people who are just greedy, but people who are genuinely pansexual.

[Ren Ying Ying]

the true "bi's", i'm not sure.
if one beleives in the kinsey scale & reports, it's not unusual to have "homosexual-tendencies", though not necessarily meaning they are "true homosexuals"

[jadebunny9]

Oh is that so? Renna, I think I'm gonna have to cancel our date this week. *moves away*

[aiyopop]

I'm saying, I really don't give a damn if homosexuals enjoy works where heterosexuals are the lead, because they don't have a choice. Either they suck it up, or they don't read at all. Heterosexuals do have a choice, and they can, will, and do exercise it.

This comment is dedicated to Ren Wo Xing's quote in page 2 (look at the above quote). I know I'm coming too late into the conversation which happened 5 years ago, but I just want to say that actually homosexuals have a choice to read literature. Just because the leads are not homosexual does not automatically mean it is a heterosexual book. Take, for example, Sherlock Holmes which it is based on interpretation whether the character is gay or not. There are many literature books out there which are non-heterosexual as well as non-homosexual published because many people do not really into any kind of romance at all.

Actually, how many people read books in this day and age...let alone wuxia.

[PJ]

Lovely topic to revisit.

Other than Dongfang Bubai and Yang Lianting, were there any other gay males in Jin Yong's story?

I just thought of another (minor) male character who showed lust for men. In SSWRB chapter 8 (2nd ed), there is a Mr. Ma who publicly displayed lust for Qinging (who was disguised as a man).

袁承志道：“请问尊姓大名。”那人
还没回答，一个歌女道：“这位是凤阳总督府的马公子。秦淮河上有名的阔少。”马公子
也不问袁承志姓名，一双色迷迷的眼睛尽在青青的脸上溜来溜去，笑道：“你是哪个班子
里的？倒吹得好箫，怎不来伺候我大爷啊？哈哈！”
青青听他把自己当作优伶乐匠，柳眉一挺，当场便要发作。袁承志向她连使眼色，说
道：“这位是我兄弟，我们是到南京来访友的。”马公子笑道：“访甚么友？今日遇见了
我，交了你公子爷这个朋友，你们就吃着不尽了。”袁承志心中恼怒，淡淡问道：“阁下
在总督府做甚么官？”马公子微微一笑，道：“总督马大人，便是家叔。”
这时那边花舫上又过来一人，那人穿着一身藕色熟罗长袍，身材矮小，留了两撇小胡
子，神情却是一团和气，向马公子笑道：“公子爷，这兄弟的箫吹得不错吧？”袁承志瞧
他模样，料想他是马公子身边的清客。马公子道：“景亭，你跟他们说说。”那人自称姓
杨名景亭，当下喏喏连声，对袁夏二人道：“马公子是凤阳总督马大人的亲侄儿，交朋友
是最热心不过的，一掷千金，毫无吝色。谁交到了这位朋友，那真是一交跌入青云里去啦
。马大人最宠爱这个侄儿，待他比亲生儿子还好，这位兄弟要交朋友嘛，最好就搬到马公
子府里去住。”

[Ren Wo Xing]

Holy thread necromancy, batman!

[tape]

This comment is dedicated to Ren Wo Xing's quote in page 2 (look at the above quote). I know I'm coming too late into the conversation which happened 5 years ago, but I just want to say that actually homosexuals have a choice to read literature. Just because the leads are not homosexual does not automatically mean it is a heterosexual book. Take, for example, Sherlock Holmes which it is based on interpretation whether the character is gay or not. There are many literature books out there which are non-heterosexual as well as non-homosexual published because many people do not really into any kind of romance at all.

Actually, how many people read books in this day and age...let alone wuxia.

His point was just that there are more heterosexually oriented books than homosexual oriented books, and if you get more specific into a subset genre of books like wuxia, the effect is even more prominent.

Side note: Big pet peeve is people who value reading "books" more than just reading "stuff". Books aren't inherently better, and to me it's really quite the opposite most of the time. Books take a lot of time to read and while you definitely gain a new perspective (amongst other things) as you go through the process, if you spent the same amount of time reading good articles or journals I think it's more beneficial. It's a fun process and I love reading, but I do think the value of "actually reading books" is a bit overblown. Any activity that promotes mental growth even if it's just deeply understanding something silly like a videogame has a lot of value.

[S Beaver]

His point was just that there are more heterosexually oriented books than homosexual oriented books, and if you get more specific into a subset genre of books like wuxia, the effect is even more prominent.

Last I heard, books don't have sexual orientations (or different sexes for that matter)

Jokes aside, I doubt JY was specifically thinking to aim at "heterosexual" audiences. In addition, homosexual individuals can read about heterosexual relationships, so why not also the other way around (unless the reader him/herself personally has something against the character's sexual orientation).

[PJ]

My comment on the broader subject of whether gay characters have a place in wuxia literature, is in fact what's already been said: if readers accept it, than yes.

Over here in the developed West, gay culture has gained mainstream integration in both daily life and in media. China is making some progress, but far behind. But given the trend of acceptance and integration by younger people in general, it could well be that people won't give a second thought in 50 years if XF turn out to be a gay man.

[andyssolace]

I know this is an old thread but reading it really irritated me. Of course there can be gay leads in wuxia novels! Did you really spend like 3 pages arguing about that? Considering how said novels show storylines about the lead's friends/romantic interests, you could have the lead pursue a man and the supporting characters pursue their own heterosexual partners. It would still be wuxia, the only different thing is instead of lead traditionally liking women, he likes men.

What if the lead was straight for half of a wuxia novel (being in the closet) and finally come to terms with his attraction to a male character? Would it suddenly NOT be a wuxia novel?? No!

Also, just because a lead is gay doesn't mean he have to be kissing/having sex with another man. He could have an unrequited love for another man and end up just being a gay virgin in the wuxia world. It still would be of the wuxia genre. The only way it wouldn't be is if the whole story was concentrated on the "romance" aspect.

Personally I would love reading/watching wuxia with gay leads. We've seen wuxia before with leads falling for crossdressing women. The inner turmoil and the whole "loving someone despite social norms" is a very beautiful aspect and would enhance any wuxia story.

[Ian Liew]

I know this is an old thread but reading it really irritated me. Of course there can be gay leads in wuxia novels! Did you really spend like 3 pages arguing about that? Considering how said novels show storylines about the lead's friends/romantic interests, you could have the lead pursue a man and the supporting characters pursue their own heterosexual partners. It would still be wuxia, the only different thing is instead of lead traditionally liking women, he likes men.

What if the lead was straight for half of a wuxia novel (being in the closet) and finally come to terms with his attraction to a male character? Would it suddenly NOT be a wuxia novel?? No!

Also, just because a lead is gay doesn't mean he have to be kissing/having sex with another man. He could have an unrequited love for another man and end up just being a gay virgin in the wuxia world. It still would be of the wuxia genre. The only way it wouldn't be is if the whole story was concentrated on the "romance" aspect.

Personally I would love reading/watching wuxia with gay leads. We've seen wuxia before with leads falling for crossdressing women. The inner turmoil and the whole "loving someone despite social norms" is a very beautiful aspect and would enhance any wuxia story.

People aren't debating whether it can be written, but whether the target audience would accept it, and whether the average wuxia reader would find it off-putting. Personally, I find it completely irrelevant - it doesn't matter what story you put it in - those who accept it will accept it, and those who find it uncomfortable will reject it even if it was a US novel about spies, politicians/lawyers based in the USA. Being set in Ancient China would make social reaction to such things (within the novel) interesting to see, for sure, but if Alexander the Great led a bisexual army then who knows what people really thought back then?

At the end of the day it has nothing to do with wuxia, and will probably be integrated into the plot depending on the author's personal decision to make a statement. Like you wrote, "What if the lead was straight for half of a wuxia novel (being in the closet) and finally come to terms with his attraction to a male character? Would it suddenly NOT be a wuxia novel?? No!" - it wouldn't, but some people wouldn't like it. Similarly, if the lead started off gay, but then ended up straight at the end, some people wouldn't like it either. It would no longer be, at least for now, a judgement on whether the wuxia was good or not, but whether our personal views on the matter won at the end of the day.

[PJ]

To be fair, history does warrant consideration. I personally don't have this knowledge, of how homosexuality was treated throughput the history of China, but it would be odd for a story to highly contradict the known history during the period in which it's set. Other than that, it's an open area to explore.

[athlee]

Homosexuality in china before the coming of christianity was mostly accepted. There is the confucian thing about heirs, but it is recorded that some men has the same status as concubines openly.

Certainly, some of the early priests express outrage at the open display.

I disagree that gay leads will change the genre of a story like wuxia and fantasy.

There are a few fantasy books with a gay lead, fiona patton and mercedes lackey's books come to mind. Mainstream manga has a lot of prominent characters who are gay, example is the popular(personally hated it) Sailormoon has a prominent gay character. There are also lots of yaoi and shonen ai manga which are aimed at females as opposed to homosexuals.