Zhang Wuji & Golden Wheel Monk & Qiu Qianren -vs- Guo Jing & Yang Guo

[the.raven]

3 greats level fighters against 2 greats level fighters??

3 > 2.

QED

[flamer]

If all 5 of them are fighting to win. ZWJ/QQR/GWM will win almost certainly.

[jhudsui]

If all 5 of them are fighting to win. ZWJ/QQR/GWM will win almost certainly.

Well, obviously. The reason it's an open question is that ZWJ fights to save his opponent the maximum amount of face possible even when that means he has to lose himself, and the GWM is skittish like a kitten.

[ChanceEncounter]

If all 5 of them are fighting to win. ZWJ/QQR/GWM will win almost certainly.

The whole point of the exercise is to pit the two great level guys that have shown to overperform (GJ and YG) via the three that consistently underperform.

It's not much to say, "well if they all perform to their maximum capacity, the team of 3 will win."

Given that GJ could very possibly hold off two of them--he has already done it against QQR and 1 great level fighter after all--while YG would beat the other (hell, he has already managed to beat two of the 3 in relatively [for great level fights] short time), it's certainly not inconceivable that the team of 2 wins.

[flamer]

Ok but I just don't think that including things like "ZWJ standing there and try to talk people to stop" and "GWM running like a pussy" count as good reasons why Team of 2 will win.

[HuntingX]

The only question is QQR's actual level I think.

We know he is marginally worse than GWM, who's marginally worse than YG/GJ. How much is marginal?

Can he even last 10 stances against YG post training? We have no evidence either way.

ZWJ is either going to lose in 2 moves or not in 100. If he's caught off guard by someone with comparable inner strength to himself (note he's NEVER fought an opponent of equal strength before), he could just die immediately. Otherwise, if he fights defensively with QKDNY, he can survive for a long time.

On the flip side, he has very little offensive power compared to double 18dragons. I'm not sure him + GWM could take down GJ in a speedy manner.

If the group of three go for a fast gangbang on YG, I can definitely see him falling. While his QG is probably the best of the three, his one arm is a huge disadvantage when defending 2 opponents. Send ZWJ to tank GJ, GWM and QQR to fight YG. Then, I think the three losers have a pretty solid shot of taking this.

If it's GJ vs 2 and YG vs anyone, should be a very quick win for the 2 heroes.

[PJ]

Can he even last 10 stances against YG post training? We have no evidence either way.

No doubt Qiu Qianren can pull that off. He lasted against Golden Wheel Monk for over 2000+ stances (a whole day), and Goldie lasted against Yang Guo for 300+ stances without trouble.

[jadebunny9]

Ok but I just think that including things like "ZWJ standing there and try to talk people to stop" and "GWM running like a pussy" count as good reasons why Team of 2 will win.

They are sort of good reasons. Unless you meant to say "don't" before the word "count."

If he does that, it's still considered a win for his team

Actually, a third team would step out and declare their victory. QQR was actually on their side the whole time. I still don't know who to put in the third team yet though....

If he's caught off guard by someone with comparable inner strength to himself (note he's NEVER fought an opponent of equal strength before), he could just die immediately.

Sorry I had to laugh out loud. Poor ZWJ....

[ChronoReverse]

I wonder if YG knows enough of 9 Yin to be able to be given the basics of the Big Dipper Formation "on the fly". It wouldn't matter even if GWM, QQR and ZWJ hears as long as YG figures out what GJ is trying to tell him and can act accordingly.

3 versus 2 in a straight fight wouldn't work out too well but there are ways to help mitigate that.

[flamer]

Indeed I meant that I DON'T think those are good reasons at all. Why can't you say GJ gets asked a riddle and stands there thinking about it. ZWJ has fought when needed and never actually just stood there and talk when attacked. GWM has never ran from a battle without fighting and he only panics when he knows he will lose for certain.

When people can't have a YG vs GJ debate, they pit YG + GJ against others and just declare them the victor.

[HuntingX]

We can only speculate that he lasted 2000 stances. All we really know is GWM killed him over the course of 1 day. Whether he spent that day hiding behind rocks or dodging in and out of inns or something stupid is unknown.

Logically, GWM should trash the poor guy. QQR was around YG's level before the 16 years, but both YG and GWM trained extensively and improved by leaps and bounds.

We have 0 evidence QQR was taught 1Yang or any of Yideng's higher skills. I doubt Yideng encouraged the guy to train his Iron Palms. I can't see a justification for him lasting 2000 stances.

Further, I think if YG had the Iron Sword, or if GWM had no wheels and YG was able to use Sad Palms, the difference in level could be quite large (certainly it would not take 300 moves to decide the match).

[flamer]

We can only speculate that he lasted 2000 stances. All we really know is GWM killed him over the course of 1 day. Whether he spent that day hiding behind rocks or dodging in and out of inns or something stupid is unknown.

Logically, GWM should trash the poor guy. QQR was around YG's level before the 16 years, but both YG and GWM trained extensively and improved by leaps and bounds.

We have 0 evidence QQR was taught 1Yang or any of Yideng's higher skills. I doubt Yideng encouraged the guy to train his Iron Palms. I can't see a justification for him lasting 2000 stances.

....

慈恩见老衲心念故国，出去打探消息，途中和一人相遇，二人激斗一日一夜，慈恩终于伤在他的手下。”

Thats like saying we have zero evidence Yideng and HYS trained extensively in the 16 years. But how did they manage to par with GWM?

[ChanceEncounter]

Indeed I meant that I DON'T think those are good reasons at all. Why can't you say GJ gets asked a riddle and stands there thinking about it. ZWJ has fought when needed and never actually just stood there and talk when attacked. GWM has never ran from a battle without fighting and he only panics when he knows he will lose for certain.

When people can't have a YG vs GJ debate, they pit YG + GJ against others and just declare them the victor.

The answer was partially in jest. Same with how QQR would wait until they get into internal energy competitions, knife them all in the back, and declare himself #1 in Wulin.

But yes, GWM had the advantage of his wheels + a happy/depowered YG in the fight, and he still thought he would lose within 300 stances. After YG started to use the sad palms to full effect, GWM had no answer for the strangeness of the palms, and literally began to unravel. Both he and ZWJ have shown that they regularly have no answer for 'weird' martial arts or trickery, and YG has plenty of that. Combined with YG having already beat GWM and QQR before, and I have no doubt in saying that if YG can get into a 1-on-1 with any of the three competitors, he would win in relatively short order.

GJ on the other hand, has shown the ability to hold off two great level fighters. He has L/R, he has XL18Z and Vacant Fist (which he could technically use in conjunction to fend off various styles), he has 9 Yin and knowledge of formations. He won't be beating any of the two that he fights, but he certainly can hold them off for a large number of stances.

That said, it woul depend on whether or not YG could isolate one of the three while GJ holds off the other two. I think this scenario is quite possible/likely, so thus I think the team of two have a good chance.

[HuntingX]

I strongly disagree flamer.

QQR was a virtual prisoner under YD. He was learning how to be a monk, not refining his martial arts.

YD was training his internal energy (refinement) while meditating; there's no contradiction there.

HYS was always interested in martial arts, why wouldn't he train?

On the other hand, I doubt (strongly doubt) QQR's energy base and YD's have ANYTHING in common. Thus, QQR cannot have become more powerful simply studying scriptures. If anything, YD would be discouraging QQR from training his original base gongfu since Iron Palms and the corresponding base would be contrary to his training as a monk.

You cannot compare QQR with YD and HYS.

[CC]

I can't quite believe the poll is tied at 8 vs 8 now.

The GJ + YG fans must be out in full force and united just this once!

I think XF>GJ>YG and even then, subbing in XF for YG would still have me betting that the team of 3 would win.

[Ren Wo Xing]

I can't quite believe the poll is tied at 8 vs 8 now.

The GJ + YG fans must be out in full force and united just this once!

I think XF>GJ>YG and even then, subbing in XF for YG would still have me betting that the team of 3 would win.

I agree. Even if XF were to substitute in for YG, I don't see this as being winnable for the duo.

[Ken Cheng]

I can't quite believe the poll is tied at 8 vs 8 now.

The GJ + YG fans must be out in full force and united just this once!

I think XF>GJ>YG and even then, subbing in XF for YG would still have me betting that the team of 3 would win.

I agree. Even if XF were to substitute in for YG, I don't see this as being winnable for the duo.

Despite the reputations that Cheung Mo Gei, the Golden Wheel Monk, and Kau Cheen Yan had for being chokers extraordinaires (and they were), I think the three-to-two advantage they hold here is too much for the uncle/nephew combo of Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor to overcome.

Three to two should be too great an advantage for even *that* terrible trio to choke away, right?

[flamer]

I can't quite believe the poll is tied at 8 vs 8 now.

The GJ + YG fans must be out in full force and united just this once!

I think XF>GJ>YG and even then, subbing in XF for YG would still have me betting that the team of 3 would win.

Exactly what I think.

"When people can't have a YG vs GJ debate, they pit YG + GJ against others and just declare them the victor."

[flamer]

I strongly disagree flamer.

QQR was a virtual prisoner under YD. He was learning how to be a monk, not refining his martial arts.

YD was training his internal energy (refinement) while meditating; there's no contradiction there.

HYS was always interested in martial arts, why wouldn't he train?

On the other hand, I doubt (strongly doubt) QQR's energy base and YD's have ANYTHING in common. Thus, QQR cannot have become more powerful simply studying scriptures. If anything, YD would be discouraging QQR from training his original base gongfu since Iron Palms and the corresponding base would be contrary to his training as a monk.

You cannot compare QQR with YD and HYS.

The only evidence we heard was that QQR fought for a day and a night with post 16 GWM who doubled his power in that time. Before doubling, GWM was already on par with then Guo Jing who was already Greats level. If QQR did NOT improve, he would never have survived for a day and a night against GWM who must be more than twice as powerful than QQR. Only logical to deduce that QQR indeed improve, whether we like it or not.

[Exodus]

I can't quite believe the poll is tied at 8 vs 8 now.

The GJ + YG fans must be out in full force and united just this once!

I think XF>GJ>YG and even then, subbing in XF for YG would still have me betting that the team of 3 would win.

I think YG > XF > GJ