Zhang Wuji & Golden Wheel Monk & Qiu Qianren -vs- Guo Jing & Yang Guo

[flamer]

I think YG > XF > GJ

Xiao Feng fans might beg to differ. So do I .

[PJ]

We can only speculate that he lasted 2000 stances. All we really know is GWM killed him over the course of 1 day. Whether he spent that day hiding behind rocks or dodging in and out of inns or something stupid is unknown.

Not true. The novel said 二人激斗一日一夜

The two fought fiercely for one day and one night.

IMO, hiding behind rocks does not qualify as fighting fiercely.

Logically, GWM should trash the poor guy. QQR was around YG's level before the 16 years, but both YG and GWM trained extensively and improved by leaps and bounds.

That just means Qiu Qianren improved also.

We have 0 evidence QQR was taught 1Yang or any of Yideng's higher skills. I doubt Yideng encouraged the guy to train his Iron Palms. I can't see a justification for him lasting 2000 stances.

This has been discussed recently. Internal energy improves on its own. You do NOT have to do any explicit training to improve (it probably helps, but is not necessary).

Further, I think if YG had the Iron Sword, or if GWM had no wheels and YG was able to use Sad Palms, the difference in level could be quite large (certainly it would not take 300 moves to decide the match).

Yang Guo can't use Sad Palms to its maximum level most of the time. In fact, he's only reached the maximum level ONCE.

[druid]

ZWJ uses Taiji, QKDNY and Sacred Fire Divine skill to hold off GJ's double 18 dragon palms and his Kong Ming Quan... With any luck, using 9 Yang and QKDNY ZWJ can "learn" Kong Ming Quan from GJ (shd he ever use it) and uses it against the dragon palms... which i think is a good counter measure... since ZBT could defend himself against the might of Golden Wheel monk's forceful palms...

Golden wheel palms (during battle with the three greats) = GJ's Dragon palms.... (IMO)

while...

Iron man Qiu and Golden monk uses their internal to overwhelm YG who will have a distinct disadvanage....

just off the record...

Golden wheel monk>GJ
Golden wheel monk>YG

in terms of internal. Past discussions from this forum has led me to this crazy belief.=)

[Dennis Chen]

Yang Guo should be able to learn Big Dipper easily. He had to learn Quanzhen martial arts before he learned Jade Maiden.

[ChronoReverse]

There's still too many variables to this matter (bolding added to emphasize that this is Devil's Advocate).



The chances of the 3-Team beating the 2-Team is obviously significantly higher than the opposite but there is still a degree of randomness to the situation even assuming no-choking.

I've already mentioned formations, which is something the 3-Team has no way of leveraging while the 2-Team has a remote chance of using (although GJ will certainly use it on his own anyway). With a formation the fight can be dragged on.

Another thing is stamina. GWM and especially QQR have lower stamina than ZWJ, GJ and YG. If GJ and YG don't fight it out head on but fought in a defensive retreating manner, the fight could very well be dragged on long enough for stamina to be a factor.

GJ's L/R technique also shouldn't be looked down upon. It doesn't do anything for internal energy, but the books clearly show and state that the technique is nearly doubled up (to the point it's like 2 people). This is also another factor that could drag on the fight.



Also, I don't think it's that easy to engage in an internal energy fight if one party is actively avoiding it.

H7G was forced into an internal energy battle with OYF because he was disadvantaged at the particular moment. Recall that H7G took pity on YG and decided to leave when OYF attacked again. H7G conceded three stances at that point and nearly died for it and thus had to block OYF's insane attack with internal energy through his staff.

Incidentally, reading over this section, OYF had steam coming out of his head in a dense manner right at the beginning of the internal energy match while H7G had no such description at all. Yet they still were able to compete from dawn to dusk. (this is a jab at the theory that because YiDeng had steam on his head that he was already losing and at his limit).

[Dennis Chen]

I would be interested in seeing ZWJ's Qi Shang Quan up against GJ's Xiang Long Shi Ba Zhang.

Is the internal for each hand halved when using L/R technique? If so, it's conceivable that ZWJ could use QKDNY to get Guo Jing to fight himself. That would be hilarious.

[ChronoReverse]

Internal energy is only halved if you're using two techniques at the exact same time and if both hands require the utmost exertion.

Otherwise someone with high purity in internal energy like GJ would be able to reroute full power to either hand in succession. The split can also be something like 70/30 if required.

Besides, the theory behind HL18P is holding back a large portion at first and then unleashing the power when the strike lands. Unless GJ was lucky enough to hit two targets simultaneously (unlikely against two other Greats), he wouldn't need full power in both palms. Of course, if he were using L/R against one target, then if either palm lands, he'd just need to route the power to that palm and it's just as good.

[duguxiaojing]

I can't quite believe the poll is tied at 8 vs 8 now.

lol...GJ and YG were doubling up the three when I first voted...its just evening up now.


As for the three "chokers" ...speculation aside..they are still geniuses and should win with such a huge advantage. I mean these four's inner power's are pretty much dead locked. If WJ and GWM force an internal competition then QQR can smash the other two with ease. From what i've seen in the novel, when guys are relatively the same level they can barely even move with out suffering some nasty internal damge. They should not be able to withstand a an attack for a third party.

[flamer]

Chrono: ZBT, probably the best L/R Technique master did not use it against GWM.
And what makes you think that GWM will have less stamina? He was around... 50(?) and was said to be at his peak of MA.

When Greats fight, how often do they use formations? I can't recall of any myself but the only fight involving a number of Greats is HYS/ZBT/YD vs GWM. In which they did not use any formations.

[ChronoReverse]

GWM was 50ish at the beginning of ROCH. By the end of it he was approaching 70. GJ on the other hand was about 50 and in the prime of his life. In any case, I emphasized that it was QQR who would suffer most from stamina depletion.



As for L/R technique, GJ used it more effectively than ZBT ever did. Furthermore, the idea to use it for fighting more effectively was GJ's idea.

Here's a short list of what GJ used it against:
-OYF and QQR (with a dash of ZBT)
-the 98 QZ taoist in the Super Big Dipper Formation
-GWM and all Mongolian Warriors

At least two of the situations involved fighting against Great level opponents and had GJ holding his own for much longer than he should have.

Even ZBT used it to great effect against QQR:

At first Qiu Qianren was able to match him stance for stance, but as soon as Zhou Botong used the mutual hands combat technique, Qiu Qianren was forced to withdraw. When martial art masters contended, as soon as one admit inferiority, then victory or defeat should be decided

The more Zhou Botong fought Qiu Qianren, the more excited he became. Several times he did gain an upper hand, but unexpectedly he did not kill Qiu Qianren.

As for formations, GJ was also a great practitioner of using the Big Dipper Formation by himself to increase his apparent power.

When he first figured it out, he managed to send enough power to match QQR's palm. He later also used the technique to hold out against GWM and the Mongolian Warriors (long enough to get away cleanly incidentally).

YG has the advantage of already knowing QZ sword play and 9 Yin. Outside of a battle, he'd learn the formation in a flash. The real issue is whether he'd be able to pick it up on the fly.

[jackattack]

Zhang Wuji is the weak link here.

Yang Guo and Guo Jing should win after a very very brutal fight, IF Yang GUo is REALLY sad.

[Ken Cheng]

Zhang Wuji is the weak link here.

Yang Guo and Guo Jing should win after a very very brutal fight, IF Yang GUo is REALLY sad.

One more time, with feeling.

Yeung Gor's Sad Palms is *capped* at 100% when he's sad. What you saw in ROCH was pretty much as good as it got. When he isn't sad, the Sad Palms works at something less than 100%.

What it definitely does NOT do, however, is go to 110%, 150%, or 500% because he's sad. It just doesn't work that way.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Zhang Wuji is the weak link here.

Yang Guo and Guo Jing should win after a very very brutal fight, IF Yang GUo is REALLY sad.

Oh god, not this again....thankfully, Ken got to it before me.

[ChronoReverse]

Um, jackattack, please don't revive every single thread relating to some topic you have on your mind like this please.

[Ken Cheng]

Um, jackattack, please don't revive every single thread relating to some topic you have on your mind like this please.

Actually, it's probably better that he revive existing threads on the same topic rather than start a whole new one. That's what we've always asked people to do.

[jackattack]

One more time, with feeling.

Yeung Gor's Sad Palms is *capped* at 100% when he's sad. What you saw in ROCH was pretty much as good as it got. When he isn't sad, the Sad Palms works at something less than 100%.

What it definitely does NOT do, however, is go to 110%, 150%, or 500% because he's sad. It just doesn't work that way.

What you say is true. However, even when he was extremely happy after meeting Xiao Long Nu, his sad palms managed to hold off an extremely powerful Golden Wheel Monk, while at the same time he was barehanded with an injured shoulder and had to protect Guo Xiang.

And then when he became sad that he would never see xiao long nu again, it was a slaughterhouse. I think he knocked the Golden Wheel Monk down after just six stances. SIX STANCES. And he wasn't lucky or anything, he beat the Golden Wheeled Monk fair and square. So you see, if Yang Guo could truely utilize 100 percent of his sad palms, he would be far above the Greats of ROCH.

[Ken Cheng]

What you say is true. However, even when he was extremely happy after meeting Xiao Long Nu, his sad palms managed to hold off an extremely powerful Golden Wheel Monk, while at the same time he was barehanded with an injured shoulder and had to protect Guo Xiang.

And then when he became sad that he would never see xiao long nu again, it was a slaughterhouse. I think he knocked the Golden Wheel Monk down after just six stances. SIX STANCES. And he wasn't lucky or anything, he beat the Golden Wheeled Monk fair and square. So you see, if Yang Guo could truely utilize 100 percent of his sad palms, he would be far above the Greats of ROCH.

I'm not so sure. Once again, the Golden Wheel Monk had one of his infamous mindfarts. When Yeung Gor's Sad Palm was at less than 100%, the monk had him at a disadvantage, and thought that he could win the fight. Remember: the Golden Wheel Monk does not know how Yeung Gor's Sad Palm works. The Golden Wheel Monk really thought that the less-than-overwhelming performance Yeung Gor demonstrated a few minutes earlier was as good as the one-armed warrior could give. Little did he know that he hadn't seen Yeung Gor at 100% yet.

He was unready for it, and took the full brunt of an unexpected offensive. Even then, he wasn't dead: it took a collapsing tower and Chow Bak Tung's bear hug with a poisoned soft armor vest to finish the job.

Yeung Gor is only "better" than the older Greats in the sense that he's younger than them and in his prime, and could outlast them in an extended fight. Also, he attained this high level much earlier in life than they did.

But in absolute value terms, Yeung Gor isn't established as the best at the end of ROCH: most importantly, he never faced the most important test - Gwok Jing.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Both of you are a bit off. Yang Guo was demonstrating clear supriority over JLGS, even though YG was barehanded and JLGS was using his wheels, and even though YG was not using Sad Palms (or at least, not using it at near full power); after 200 stances had passed, JLGS felt that he would lose within another 100 stances, and thus started to attack Guo Xiang. That's when YG, in a frantic charge to save Guo Xiang, suffered a severe wound to his leg, which resulted in him being put at a disadvantage.

However, that being said, it certainly did appear that JLGS's quick defeat to YG after the latter started using Sad Palms was in large part due to surprise and shock, as well as JLGS's usual weakness to strange, unorthodox techniques.

[chibidaisuke]

I think YG > XF > GJ

On the contrary I think XF > GJ > YG.

[Dirt]

Qiu holds off Guo. Zhang and Guoshi go after Yang. Zhang defends, Guoshi attacks a la YTZ+MRF. Zhang and Guo dispatch Yang and all 3 takes care of Guo.