How great was the difference in martial arts level among the Four Great Evils?

[Dennis Chen]

I think it's supreme commitment mingled with talent.

[PJ]

That's true, but there's a major difference between 'winning easily against all five of them', and 'taking on a single attack from two stronger people' as well.

I must admit, from the outcome of that fight alone, it does look like Duan Yanqing is > Murong Fu's party of 5. And yet, that would mean Duan Yanqing is about 2x the power of Murong Fu, since each of Murong Fu's assistant is around the level of a lower Evil, and 4 of them certainly come close to Murong Fu's own level. So Murong Fu is only about 1/8, or 12.5%, of Xiao Feng's level then? And yet, Tianshan Tonglao praised Murong Fu as having reached the stage of divinity in energy shifting.

[Ren Wo Xing]

I must admit, from the outcome of that fight alone, it does look like Duan Yanqing is > Murong Fu's party of 5. And yet, that would mean Duan Yanqing is about 2x the power of Murong Fu, since each of Murong Fu's assistant is around the level of a lower Evil, and 4 of them certainly come close to Murong Fu's own level. So Murong Fu is only about 1/8, or 12.5%, of Xiao Feng's level then? And yet, Tianshan Tonglao praised Murong Fu as having reached the stage of divinity in energy shifting.

Well, remember that the ability to fight a person does not correspond directly to level comparisons. I do think Xiao Feng could very possibly take on eight Murong Fu-level fighters at the same time, assuming he can take on 4 Duan Yanqing's (and assuming there is no synergistic benefit), but that doesn't necessarily mean Murong Fu was only at an eighth of Xiao Feng's level. If I were to put it mathematically, I'd say the Xuan generation monks or Duan Yanqing are maybe 80% of Xiao Feng, and Murong Fu perhaps 60% of Xiao Feng. It shouldn't be too hard for a top tier elite fighter to take on a number of fighters who are only at 60% of your own level. Not to mention, Xiao Feng always had the ability to 'scale' himself based on his opponent's toughness...

PS: Murong Fu may indeed have reached the stage of divinity in energy shifting, but not much else

[PJ]

Well, remember that the ability to fight a person does not correspond directly to level comparisons. I do think Xiao Feng could very possibly take on eight Murong Fu-level fighters at the same time, assuming he can take on 4 Duan Yanqing's (and assuming there is no synergistic benefit), but that doesn't necessarily mean Murong Fu was only at an eighth of Xiao Feng's level. If I were to put it mathematically, I'd say the Xuan generation monks or Duan Yanqing are maybe 80% of Xiao Feng, and Murong Fu perhaps 60% of Xiao Feng. It shouldn't be too hard for a top tier elite fighter to take on a number of fighters who are only at 60% of your own level. Not to mention, Xiao Feng always had the ability to 'scale' himself based on his opponent's toughness.

Xuan generation monk at 80% of Xiao Feng?
Duan Yanqing at 80% of Xiao Feng?

Impossible.
Remember how Jiumozhi defeated Reverend Xuandu in 3 stances, in a fair fight.

I'd say Duan Yanqing is at most 30% of Xiao Feng's power. Remember it was said that Xiao Feng had long ago exceeded his teacher Reverend Xuanku by a long shot. Exceeding him by 20% is not a long shot.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Xuan generation monk at 80% of Xiao Feng?
Duan Yanqing at 80% of Xiao Feng?

Impossible.
Remember how Jiumozhi defeated Reverend Xuandu in 3 stances, in a fair fight.

I'd say Duan Yanqing is at most 30% of Xiao Feng's power. Remember it was said that Xiao Feng had long ago exceeded his teacher Reverend Xuanku by a long shot. Exceeding him by 20% is not a long shot.

The 'fair fight' was hardly an actual fight. IIRC, they basically stood there and shot attacks at each other using the 'Nian Hua Zi'. Jiu Mozhi's internal energy cultivation being significantly greater than Xuandu, he won. I very much doubt that in a 'real' fight against Xuandu or Xuanci that he would be able to subdue them in anything near three stances.

I'm going off a somewhat logarithmic measurement scale, as I believe that to be more accurate. And exceeding by 20% is a very considerable amount.

Remember the duel with the Greats at the end of LOCH? When Huang Yaoshi was only using 70% of his force, he was actually losing to Guo Jing. But as soon as he started going seriously against Guo Jing, Guo Jing was defeated in roughly a hundred stances or so (and this was even with Huang Yaoshi not using his Tanzhi Shentong). If he was using that in a real fight against Guo Jing, I really doubt Guo Jing could have lasted even 50 stances. So a fighter to whom a 70% Huang Yaoshi was losing to could only last 50 stances to a 100% Huang Yaoshi at most.

Perhaps I was being a bit too generous though. I'll put the Xuan generation monks/Duan Yanqing at 70%, and Murong Fu at maybe 40-50%. In other words, if Xiao Feng was only using half his arsenal/ability, he would be about Murong Fu's level; however, if he was using everything, then he could take on several fighters of Murong Fu's level. It's logarithmic.

[ChanceEncounter]

Logarithmic is definitely the way to go. Fighters don't stack linearly. If I team up with someone to fight a single opponent, my punching force isn't suddenly doubled; my speed isn't suddenly doubled. It's improved, but in a logarithmic performance.

Likewise how Xiao Feng can march through an army. He wouldn't be able to do it if all of the tens of thousands of soldier's strength and speed stacked on each other as one unit.

[ChronoReverse]

This is also one of the reasons why the high-level formations are so incredibly powerful. Suddenly a group of fighters start to stack up more closer to linear.

[PJ]

Remember the duel with the Greats at the end of LOCH? When Huang Yaoshi was only using 70% of his force, he was actually losing to Guo Jing. But as soon as he started going seriously against Guo Jing, Guo Jing was defeated in roughly a hundred stances or so (and this was even with Huang Yaoshi not using his Tanzhi Shentong). If he was using that in a real fight against Guo Jing, I really doubt Guo Jing could have lasted even 50 stances. So a fighter to whom a 70% Huang Yaoshi was losing to could only last 50 stances to a 100% Huang Yaoshi at most.

OK, let's say the bold part is true.

Xiao Feng defeated Reverend Xuannan in ONE stance at Juxian Zhuang. It was a fair fight: Xuannan attacked Xiao Feng, and Xiao Feng countered, breaking Xuannan's signature move.

Later, when Xiao Feng was already injured, he again subdued Reverend Xuanju in ONE stance. Again, it was a fair fight: Xuanju and 10 other people attacked Xiao Feng; Xiao Feng responded by grabbing Xuanju, rendering him helpless.

There's no way in hell Xiao Feng would need 50 stances to defeat a Xuan-generation monk.

[PJ]

Logarithmic is definitely the way to go. Fighters don't stack linearly. If I team up with someone to fight a single opponent, my punching force isn't suddenly doubled; my speed isn't suddenly doubled. It's improved, but in a logarithmic performance.

Your punching force and speed aren't doubled, but your team's punching force and speed are doubled.

[zhouyu]

Doesn't it seem like Murong Fu's abilities got weaker after his fight with Duan Yu at Shaolin? Maybe its because of his confidence got crushed at Shaolin. I think Murong Fu fought well against DQC before Shaolin, but after Shaolin, he seems like he is getting crush everywhere.

[Ren Wo Xing]

OK, let's say the bold part is true.

Xiao Feng defeated Reverend Xuannan in ONE stance at Juxian Zhuang. It was a fair fight: Xuannan attacked Xiao Feng, and Xiao Feng countered, breaking Xuannan's signature move.

Later, when Xiao Feng was already injured, he again subdued Reverend Xuanju in ONE stance. Again, it was a fair fight: Xuanju and 10 other people attacked Xiao Feng; Xiao Feng responded by grabbing Xuanju, rendering him helpless.

There's no way in hell Xiao Feng would need 50 stances to defeat a Xuan-generation monk.

Huh? Overcoming Xuannan's signature move, 'Heaven Within the Sleeves', is hardly equivalent to defeating Xuannan. They fought for a long time afterwards, using the 'Founders Long Fist'. It was a clear display of superiority, but that =! subduing. We all know Xiao Feng is superior to Xuannan.

Likewise, that grab which he landed on Xuanju not only came after a long fight (yes, with multiple people) and was when Xiao Feng was preparing to die and started launching borderline suicidal, homicidal attacks. How many stances had they exchanged prior to that?

Context, context, context. Chapter 42 specifically states that although Murong Fu is inferior to Xiao Feng, the difference wasn't so large that he could be subdued within a single stance, and we know for a fact that the stronger Xuan monks and Duan Yanqing are almost definitely superior to Murong Fu. The conclusions are pretty apparent, I think.

Btw, perhaps I should be clearer that when I refer to Duan Yanqing and 'Xuan' monks, I'm referring to the likes of Xuanci. I see 50 stances needed for Xiao Feng to take out characters at the level of Xuanci for sure at a minimum; hell, I see 50 stances as possibly being needed, depending on how 'all out' Xiao Feng is going, even against Murong Fu.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Your punching force and speed aren't doubled, but your team's punching force and speed are doubled.

The punching force isn't doubled, PJ; the 'power per punch' remains the same. It's not 'stackable'.

Let's say I can punch with the power of roughly 50 jin. Let's say you can withstand punches of up to 70 jin with ease. No matter how many of 'me' there is, you would be able to withstand all our punches with ease, because 10 of us only means that there will be 10x as many punches.

[ChanceEncounter]

There wouldn't be even 10x as many punches, because two entities can not occupy the same space at the same time. If a technique is supposed to aim at a certain accupoint, it doesn't matter if there are 5000 enemies, only 1 of them can actually hit at the point at each moment in time. Have too many enemies, and you'll have them interfering with each other and maybe even end up hitting each other.

So not only is the power not stackable, but speed and positioning is not stackable. In effect, you see diminishing returns with the number of foes. The effective difference from fighting 2 foes vs 1 would be vastly greater than the difference of fighting 10 foes vs 9, even though the actual change is equivalent.

[PJ]

The punching force isn't doubled, PJ; the 'power per punch' remains the same. It's not 'stackable'.

Let's say I can punch with the power of roughly 50 jin. Let's say you can withstand punches of up to 70 jin with ease. No matter how many of 'me' there is, you would be able to withstand all our punches with ease, because 10 of us only means that there will be 10x as many punches.

Yeah, but obviously, when there are 2 of you attacking him, you wouldn't attack sequentially. You attack together. If 2 of you strike him at the same time, it's 2x the power of 1.

[ChanceEncounter]

Yeah, but obviously, when there are 2 of you attacking him, you wouldn't attack sequentially. You attack together. If 2 of you strike him at the same time, it's 2x the power of 1.

No, it's 2x the power distributed over 2x the area, which in effect, results in the same density.

And then of course, the question is how many people can attack at precisely the same moment as each without getting the way. Even if you are in a big party, it's unlikely more than 4 or 5 people can attack at one guy at the exact same time.

[PJ]

Huh? Overcoming Xuannan's signature move, 'Heaven Within the Sleeves', is hardly equivalent to defeating Xuannan. They fought for a long time afterwards, using the 'Founders Long Fist'. It was a clear display of superiority, but that =! subduing. We all know Xiao Feng is superior to Xuannan.

Oh, right, so destroying someone's signature move is not a defeat. And yet, some people keep insisting over the years that Linghu Chong had defeated Chongxu

The Ancestor's Long Fist was obviously just a showcase for Xiao Feng. He wasn't trying to defeat Xuannan; he was trying to prove a point that required him to prolong the fight!

Likewise, that grab which he landed on Xuanju not only came after a long fight (yes, with multiple people) and was when Xiao Feng was preparing to die and started launching borderline suicidal, homicidal attacks. How many stances had they exchanged prior to that?

It took exactly ONE stance for Xiao Feng to subdue Xuanju. Yes, Xiao Feng was prepared to die, but so what? He was surrounded by 10 people, and he grabbed a Xuan-generation monk by the chest. Is that not much more impressive than Huang Yaoshi needing 50 stances to subdue Guo "70%" Jing?

Context, context, context. Chapter 42 specifically states that although Murong Fu is inferior to Xiao Feng, the difference wasn't so large that he could be subdued within a single stance

Yeah, and how many stances did it take Jiumozhi to subdue Murong Fu? Like 10? And Jiumozhi was most likely toying with Murong, since Murong was obviously screwed from the get go. Also Jiumozhi still felt indebted to Murong Bo at the time, so he most likely went easy on Murong Fu. In a fair fight, I believe Jiumozhi would finish Murong Fu in 5 or fewer stances.

Also in chapter 43, Xiao Feng was confident about being able to take out Murong Fu in under 5 stances.

Btw, perhaps I should be clearer that when I refer to Duan Yanqing and 'Xuan' monks, I'm referring to the likes of Xuanci. I see 50 stances needed for Xiao Feng to take out characters at the level of Xuanci for sure at a minimum; hell, I see 50 stances as possibly being needed, depending on how 'all out' Xiao Feng is going, even against Murong Fu.

Then Xiao Feng must be a lot worse than Jiumozhi, cause Jiumozhi took out Murong Fu instantly.

Xuanci would be lucky if he can survive 10 moves from Xiao Feng.

[PJ]

No, it's 2x the power distributed over 2x the area, which in effect, results in the same density.

If my ally and I both hit you in the chest at the same time, is that considered one area or two areas?

And then of course, the question is how many people can attack at precisely the same moment as each without getting the way. Even if you are in a big party, it's unlikely more than 4 or 5 people can attack at one guy at the exact same time.

If two people attack you, you essentially have to deal with twice the speed, until you take one out. That is why the speed factor is also doubled.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Oh, right, so destroying someone's signature move is not a defeat. And yet, some people keep insisting over the years that Linghu Chong had defeated Chongxu

The Ancestor's Long Fist was obviously just a showcase for Xiao Feng. He wasn't trying to defeat Xuannan; he was trying to prove a point that required him to prolong the fight!

1) No one 'insists' Linghu Chong defeated Chongxu. Chongxu insists Linghu Chong defeated him, because Linghu Chong was able to defeat his swordplay, but he wasn't able to find any way to overcome Linghu Chong's. If he thought he could do anything to Linghu Chong, do you think he would have let Ren Woxing off that mountain?

2) When I say 'defeat', I am talking about actually beating the person in a fight. To begin with, all Xiao Feng did was blast Xuannan with a palm that was so powerful that it eradicated his sleeves. That's hardly 'destroying their signature move'; he just plain overpowered the guy. I think you and I are talking about defeat in two totally different contexts; you are using 'defeat' in the way a person of the Wulin might use it, whereas I'm talking about actually 'subduing' the person in a fight.

It took exactly ONE stance for Xiao Feng to subdue Xuanju. Yes, Xiao Feng was prepared to die, but so what? He was surrounded by 10 people, and he grabbed a Xuan-generation monk by the chest. Is that not much more impressive than Huang Yaoshi needing 50 stances to subdue Guo "70%" Jing?

My impression was that it was something of a quick surprise kamikaze attack; I don't think anyone there expected that a wounded, surrounded Xiao Feng would suddenly actually strike out at one of the more powerful exponents there. And the kamikaze'ness does play a factor here.

Yeah, and how many stances did it take Jiumozhi to subdue Murong Fu? Like 10? And Jiumozhi was most likely toying with Murong, since Murong was obviously screwed from the get go. Also Jiumozhi still felt indebted to Murong Bo at the time, so he most likely went easy on Murong Fu. In a fair fight, I believe Jiumozhi would finish Murong Fu in 5 or fewer stances.

Also in chapter 43, Xiao Feng was confident about being able to take out Murong Fu in under 5 stances.

Actually, you may have a point here. I forgot about Jiumozhi's fight with Murong Fu. I'll ponder this with great ponderings. And could you link the relevant quote in chapter 43 please? Thanks.

[ChanceEncounter]

If my ally and I both hit you in the chest at the same time, is that considered one area or two areas?

Two areas. The density of strength per area is the same, but the total force is greater. But the example that Ren Wo Xing gave still stands. If you can withstand 70 jin of force with ease, having two people hit you with 50 jin of force would not make you break. The only way that is possible is if they manage to find a way to combine their strength and hit with more than 70 jin of force in one particular blow.

And again, having two people hit one target at the exact same instance of time is rare.

If two people attack you, you essentially have to deal with twice the speed, until you take one out. That is why the speed factor is also doubled.

No.

Every movement is still occurring at the same speed as if there was only one guy there, there is just another thing to deal with.

You really think that Duan Yanqing could handle Murong Fu if each of his movements were literally twice as fast or as strong? Not a chance. He'd be weaving back and forth, ducking under his defenses, and hacking him up.

[PJ]

By the way, for some amusing history, read this topic starting from post #10