Plateau Effect Across Novels

[HuntingX]

It's kinda late, so I'm not going to do all the necessary bibliographical work required to get this idea out, but it made sense (makes sense) to me.

Take modern sports. To go from scrub to mediocre is a very fast improvement. For a genius, to get from scrub to master is a very short process (although not for normal people). To see this most clearly, take games like Chess, or instruments like Violin/Piano, and martial arts (where the best martial artists peak at extremely young ages). This only applies to "pure" form martial arts, and not MMA, which is a whole different ballpark. In other words, a couple things are clear:

1. The absolute gap between #1 and #1000 is not huge
2. The speed that a prodigy can go from newb to "high end" is very fast
3. The speed to improve from #1000 to #1 can be very slow
4. The plateau effect occurs immediately upon entry into the upper echelon

I think we can observe this quite clearly in most novels, but there are outliers and problems comparing between novels.

As was stated before, GETTING to "near Great Level" in LOCH/ROCH appears to be "easy." It doesn't take long (within 5 years on the outside). On the other hand, SURPASSING this level apparently takes a huge amount of effort. After OYF was wrecked by WCY, he still caught up to the other Greats, who weren't exactly slacking. ZBT was also able to catch up once he was forced to study MA.

We see similar phenomena in DGSD, where (ARGUABLY) there is a massive collection of fighters at "around" QF's level:
DY/XYP 3/XZ/MRB/XYS/JMZ and at a slightly lower level (but not so much that the upper tier can just thrash them at whim) YTZ, MRF, DZM, etc.

Some of these fighters ascended the ranks at an extremely rapid clip. But, for some reason or another (novel issues?), CLEAR TEXTUAL SUPERIORITY was never shown. Despite, for instance, XZ having anywhere between 3-9X the inner power of QF.

And we see similar things in other novels: HSDS, ZSF and ZWJ (ZWJ reached the top at the beginning, and never improved after), XAJH (everyone but DFBB, who's a clear outlier).

The biggest textual outlier is XKX, which I think is out of the JY continuity to begin with. Obviously stuff like DGQB and Sweeper monk are in the "legendary" category, and can be ignored following general patterns.

[flamer]

I see, but how do you explain the Greats apparently "doubling" their power in 16 years in LOCH/ROCH?

[HuntingX]

It's never stated that their level "doubled," just that they improved.

While there's no doubt they are better than pre training, the degree of improvement is definitely open to interpretation.

For instance, QQR didn't train, but he was still on par with the Greats even post-training. That leads me to believe they are only marginally better than before, certainly nowhere near "double."

Even in the event their level DID "double," it doesn't change the conclusion since LOCH and ROCH are 2 different books with 2 different plateaus.

[ChanceEncounter]

I don't see how XKX is a textual "outlier." Maybe a wrench in the fan-created proponents of stuff like the degeneration effect, but I don't see how JY contradicted anything there.

[flamer]

It's never stated that their level "doubled," just that they improved.

While there's no doubt they are better than pre training, the degree of improvement is definitely open to interpretation.

For instance, QQR didn't train, but he was still on par with the Greats even post-training. That leads me to believe they are only marginally better than before, certainly nowhere near "double."

Even in the event their level DID "double," it doesn't change the conclusion since LOCH and ROCH are 2 different books with 2 different plateaus.

Your suggestion that QQR didn't train has also never been stated to my knowledge. Unless you can show me something written in the novel that QQR didn't train.

Although its two novels, its the same characters. The Greats' levels stayed quite stable during LOCH yet doubled in ROCH. This is against this theory as their improvement is not speedy and significant as Greats did not supposedly reach their "plateau" until late ROCH.

[the.raven]

Your suggestion that QQR didn't train has also never been stated to my knowledge. Unless you can show me something written in the novel that QQR didn't train.

Although its two novels, its the same characters. The Greats' levels stayed quite stable during LOCH yet doubled in ROCH. This is against this theory as their improvement is not speedy and significant as Greats did not supposedly reach their "plateau" until late ROCH.

QQR was doing his damnest to forget about violence, it was implied that he became enlightened. It makes no sense that he would keep practicing his powerful skills while trying to contain his violent urges.

[flamer]

QQR was doing his damnest to forget about violence, it was implied that he became enlightened. It makes no sense that he would keep practicing his powerful skills while trying to contain his violent urges.

Xuan Ci/Kong Jian are pretty enlightened, look at his MA. Sweeper Monk is even more enlightened, look at his MA...

Yea thx.

[the.raven]

Xuan Ci/Kong Jian are pretty enlightened, look at his MA. Sweeper Monk is even more enlightened, look at his MA...

Yea thx.

QQR's enlightenment comes specifically in the form of not fighting.

[flamer]

QQR's enlightenment comes specifically in the form of not fighting.

Was this explicitly said or just your assumption? Even if this was said, fighting does not equal in training in MA. Just like monks and Taoists, they train in MA to strengthen one's body.

[the.raven]

Was this explicitly said or just your assumption? Even if this was said, fighting does not equal in training in MA. Just like monks and Taoists, they train in MA to strengthen one's body.

well, QQR chained up his own hands, and frequently suffered fits due to the restraint, but he wanted to cure himself of it and kept resisting even though it was very painful for him. If he kept training, wtf is the point of all the painful resisting? also, unlike people who train to strengthen their bodies, QQR really had no reason to train anymore, he just wanted forgiveness, he wanted to change over a new leaf. He used to be a very ambitious person in terms of martial arts but he was trying to change that in ROCH. his master yi deng told him he needed to conquer his own urges instead of giving in to them.

[flamer]

Hey, as I said before, unless you can back it up with evidence from the novel, I will just take it as your speculation.

Deducing from facts in the novel.

QQR fought with post 16 GWM for 1 day and 1 night. Pre16 GWM was already at the level of ROCH GJ. Even if he did not double his power, his improvement would still be quite immense. QQR would not have lasted 100 rounds if he was only 70% or less of GWM.

[the.raven]

Deducing from facts in the novel.

QQR fought with post 16 GWM for 1 day and 1 night. Pre16 GWM was already at the level of ROCH GJ. Even if he did not double his power, his improvement would still be quite immense. QQR would not have lasted 100 rounds if he was only 70% or less of GWM.

well, the novel never explained how that fight went either, QQR could have ran around in circles in a forest for a day for all we know. theres no evidence to suggest that he was a close match for GWM.

[PJ]

We see similar phenomena in DGSD, where (ARGUABLY) there is a massive collection of fighters at "around" QF's level:
DY/XYP 3/XZ/MRB/XYS/JMZ

The Xiaoyao Pai elders could be a lot better than Xiao Feng.

Duan Yu is not even close to that level.

Xuzhu is way above that level.

They are definitely NOT "around" the same level.

and at a slightly lower level (but not so much that the upper tier can just thrash them at whim) YTZ, MRF, DZM, etc.

Incorrect. Thrashing Murong Fu at a whim is exactly what Jiumozhi did. It only took Jiumozhi like 10 stances to immobilize Murong Fu, and Jiumozhi was being merciful that time. The difference between Xiao Feng and Murong Fu is like the difference between a Great and Ni Moxing.

And we see similar things in other novels: HSDS, ZSF and ZWJ (ZWJ reached the top at the beginning, and never improved after)

Because we only see Zhang Wuji for about 1 year (?) after his peak. Had the novel gone on for 10 more years, most likely we would have seen Zhang Wuji surpassing Zhang Sanfeng.

[PJ]

It's never stated that their level "doubled," just that they improved.

No; it was STATED TWICE that Golden Wheel Monk had doubled his power.

[PJ]

Despite these little details, I do agree with the plateau effect in general.

[flamer]

well, the novel never explained how that fight went either, QQR could have ran around in circles in a forest for a day for all we know. theres no evidence to suggest that he was a close match for GWM.

I'm sure the novel uses 激斗 which definitely doesn't mean one running around.

[Ken Cheng]

I do agree that Kau Cheen Yan continuing his martial arts training after his repudiation of violence is illogical.

Kau Cheen Yan's case is different from 1 Deng and other monks who train in the martial arts. Those monks don't have a specific psychological problem with overindulgence in violence. Their practice of the martial arts has no effect on their spiritual/emotional well-being.

With Kau Cheen Yan, it's different: the very cause of his conversion to Buddhism and an ascetic life was a desperate need to reject his violent past. Continuing to train in a deadly martial art such as the Iron Palms is not at all conducive to that goal.

If he needs physical exercise, he could just as well do push ups, jumping jacks, or any other non-violent physical activity.

[HuntingX]

On the other hand, 3 "thrashed" fighters were able to keep up with QF for quite a while. I can't imagine the difference would be that enormous.

As far as DY > QF and XZ >>> QF, it is implied, but there is no textual support in terms of battles.

XZ's battles are usually less than overwhelming, and DY is about as inconsistent as possible. I don't see how you can just state XZ >>> DY > QF when XZ hasn't beaten anyone stronger than QF, and DY basically just beat down MRF a few times (who QF also beat down). While it's certainly true that XZ has more raw power, in a flat fight there's little evidence he would just "trash" QF.

For instance, 3 Du monks = 1 ZWJ, but he can't beat even 1 of them in a short amount of time. If 3 MRF (approximate) = 1 QF, then the difference cannot be that large.

As far as GWM goes, I totally missed that, checked it, you were right.

I didn't see any other references to "doubling" but maybe I'm wrong. On the other hand, it still doesn't explain the GWM vs QQR slugfest.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Actually, HuntingX, this came up in an earlier discussion; the current estimation is, believe it or not, eight MRF = 1 QF. This is because XF thought that he could possibly handle 4 DYQ at a time (implied from his comment that 5-6 would be too many), and DYQ beat the crap out of MRF + 4 assistants, and the 4 assistants together should probably equal another MRF. So Xiao Feng should definitely be able to handle 4-8 fighters of MRF's calibre at once. Plus, as JMZ (whom we know to be on par with Xiao Feng) was able to take out MRF in 10 stances....

By and large though, I do agree with the plateau effect. I think it is mostly due to author intention and desire for certain favored characters not to be able to easily knock out or outclass other favored characters.

[PJ]

On the other hand, 3 "thrashed" fighters were able to keep up with QF for quite a while. I can't imagine the difference would be that enormous.

You Tanzhi is not a normal thrashed fighter. He once injured a Xuan-generation monk in ONE stance. Even Xiao Feng would have trouble doing that normally, nevermind Murong Fu. So you cannot say 3 Murong Fu's = Xiao Feng. It was only Murong Fu + You Tanzhi = Xiao Feng.