Ngok Fei's War Tactics Manual - wither Sun Tzu's ART OF WAR?

[pannonian]

This is one of the most ridiculous things in the Condor Trilogy to me, because I'm pretty damn sure a living Subutai beats a dead Yue Fei. The Mongols had the living, breathing, inventing and adapting circumstances strategies of a guy who conquered a third of the planet, I don't think they needed to worry to much about the what written-down ideas he could fit into a book of a guy who might have been able to reclaim the territory of Northern Song if he had been allowed to, but who knows, it didn't actually happen.

And Genghis pwns all. There's a bit in LOCH where Genghis presents a strategic conundrum to Ogedei, Tolui and Guo Jing, and asks them for their opinion. Ogedei and Tolui both suggests solutions that deal with the enemy force in some fashion, but are unsatisfactory in terms of strategic objectives gained or cost in casualties. Guo Jing takes a stratagem from Yue Fei's book, to fight the enemy whilst not fighting, not fighting whilst fighting, and a smiling Genghis asks him to explain. Guo Jing explains, and Genghis lays out a map presenting exactly the plan that Guo Jing had described. Guo Jing was amazed that, while he (and presumably Yue Fei) had the learning of others to draw on, Genghis knew it all from natural talent.

[Ken Cheng]

And Genghis pwns all. There's a bit in LOCH where Genghis presents a strategic conundrum to Ogedei, Tolui and Guo Jing, and asks them for their opinion. Ogedei and Tolui both suggests solutions that deal with the enemy force in some fashion, but are unsatisfactory in terms of strategic objectives gained or cost in casualties. Guo Jing takes a stratagem from Yue Fei's book, to fight the enemy whilst not fighting, not fighting whilst fighting, and a smiling Genghis asks him to explain. Guo Jing explains, and Genghis lays out a map presenting exactly the plan that Guo Jing had described. Guo Jing was amazed that, while he (and presumably Yue Fei) had the learning of others to draw on, Genghis knew it all from natural talent.

In some ways, it's almost as if Gwok Jing found in Genghis Khan a Mongolian realization of the ideal that he (Gwok Jing) had held of Ngok Fei. Genghis Khan was like Ngok Fei come to life as a Mongolian chieftain.

Eventually, however, Gwok Jing would see that there is a dark side to nationalistic heroism...which Temujin also embodied.

[pannonian]

In some ways, it's almost as if Gwok Jing found in Genghis Khan a Mongolian realization of the ideal that he (Gwok Jing) had held of Ngok Fei. Genghis Khan was like Ngok Fei come to life as a Mongolian chieftain.

Eventually, however, Gwok Jing would see that there is a dark side to nationalistic heroism...which Temujin also embodied.

Genghis commented on that, praising the Yue Fei that Guo Jing talked so much about as a great hero who deserved so much better from Song. Genghis seemed to have seen Yue Fei as the Song equivalent of himself, and Guo Jing a worthy successor to both. Guo Jing wasn't convinced by this argument, and Genghis had Guo Jing's mother brought in.

[endo]

imagine the scenario where Guo Jing did accept GK's request to invade the Song on behalf of the Mongols and afterwards, GJ would be setup as the ruler of Song territory.

sure...there will be casualites...and civilians will get killed but in the end...wouldn't it have worked out better than the current setup of corrupt and useless officials in the Song court?

GJ would be in a MUCH better position to help out the common people...

[Ken Cheng]

imagine the scenario where Guo Jing did accept GK's request to invade the Song on behalf of the Mongols and afterwards, GJ would be setup as the ruler of Song territory.

sure...there will be casualites...and civilians will get killed but in the end...wouldn't it have worked out better than the current setup of corrupt and useless officials in the Song court?

GJ would be in a MUCH better position to help out the common people...

I don't think Genghis would have ever given Gwok Jing that opportunity.

Genghis had two plans for the Han people he conquered:

1. Enslavement

2. Extermination

In history, Yeh Lut Chor Choi succeeded in persuading Genghis to spare the Hans so that he could tax them, but before that happened, the population of northern China had already been devastated.

[endo]

I don't think Genghis would have ever given Gwok Jing that opportunity.

Genghis had two plans for the Han people he conquered:

1. Enslavement

2. Extermination

In history, Yeh Lut Chor Choi succeeded in persuading Genghis to spare the Hans so that he could tax them, but before that happened, the population of northern China had already been devastated.

from LOCH translation:

“Father King, Guo Jing Anda has rendered a great
service; he had saved your life as well as mine. Although he had committed a capital crime, you can’t behead him.”

Recalling Guo Jing’s merits Genghis Khan called out, “Bring him back!” The guards took him backinto the tent.
Genghis Khan was silent for half a day; he finally said, “You are loyal to the Song; what good doesit bring you? Once you told me the story of Yue Fei; he was utterly loyal, serving his country, yet inthe end he was executed anyway. You help me conquering the Song Dynasty, today in front of all
these people I give you my oath that I am going to make you the king of the Song, then you can unify your river and mountain.”



see...as some sort of king of the defeated Song, GJ would be in a much better position to help the common people. The people will suffer from war regardless of which side GJ is on. So why not choose the side of GK? GJ was brought up by the Mongols, he won the respect of many of it's soldiers and generals during the conquest of Samarkland. He saw how the mongols were in terms of their army's strength and how they can beat back bigger armies. What they lacked in numbers they more than made up for in determination and bravery in battle.

The Song governement was weak, unstable, and corrupt...i think he should have taken GK's offer, conquer the weak Song government and install himself as a new ruler and not have to deal with the useless Song government. He can then rule and be more benevolent towards the common people...more so than the current Song emperor.

[endo]

i wonder what HYS would do if he was presented with that opportunity that GK gave GJ?

HYS as a new ruler of Song could instill his ways of thinking about government and social rules...now that would be something to think about there

[Ken Cheng]

Genghis Khan was silent for half a day; he finally said, “You are loyal to the Song; what good doesit bring you? Once you told me the story of Yue Fei; he was utterly loyal, serving his country, yet inthe end he was executed anyway. You help me conquering the Song Dynasty, today in front of all
these people I give you my oath that I am going to make you the king of the Song, then you can unify your river and mountain.”



see...as some sort of king of the defeated Song, GJ would be in a much better position to help the common people. The people will suffer from war regardless of which side GJ is on. So why not choose the side of GK? GJ was brought up by the Mongols, he won the respect of many of it's soldiers and generals during the conquest of Samarkland. He saw how the mongols were in terms of their army's strength and how they can beat back bigger armies. What they lacked in numbers they more than made up for in determination and bravery in battle.

The Song governement was weak, unstable, and corrupt...i think he should have taken GK's offer, conquer the weak Song government and install himself as a new ruler and not have to deal with the useless Song government. He can then rule and be more benevolent towards the common people...more so than the current Song emperor.

The problem is that we'd have to assume that Genghis meant just what he appeared to be saying when he made that offer to Gwok Jing. Yes, Gwok Jing would be the King of the Sung Dynasty...but a king under Mongol rule, subject to Genghis Khan's pleasure. Genghis did not feel obliged to let Gwok Jing rule the Sung Dynasty any way that Gwok Jing saw fit. More likely, Gwok Jing would just be a puppet vassal...and at Genghis' whim, he could order Gwok Jing to enslave or execute Han citizens. The title was empty because ultimately, Genghis still held the power.

[Extremer88]

i wonder what HYS would do if he was presented with that opportunity that GK gave GJ?

Recall what happen to his disciples..

Limbs could be flying around throughout the land!

[endo]

The problem is that we'd have to assume that Genghis meant just what he appeared to be saying when he made that offer to Gwok Jing. Yes, Gwok Jing would be the King of the Sung Dynasty...but a king under Mongol rule, subject to Genghis Khan's pleasure. Genghis did not feel obliged to let Gwok Jing rule the Sung Dynasty any way that Gwok Jing saw fit. More likely, Gwok Jing would just be a puppet vassal...and at Genghis' whim, he could order Gwok Jing to enslave or execute Han citizens. The title was empty because ultimately, Genghis still held the power.

sure...he'll be more or less a puppet ruler but it's not like it's THAT much better under the current regime. The Song citizens are always under pressure of being invaded, the government knows only of taxing its citizens to pay tributes to the Jin and whoever else is bullying the Song, the current emperor only knows how to enjoy the good life, the soldiers are abysmal to say the least.

With GJ at the helm, the common people at least have a champion for their cause and even though this is mostly speculation...i would think that there would be some sort of measure of peaceful living under the protection of the mongolian rule...they we're at that time...the up and coming power in all of Asia and soon to be the ruling power over most of it.

GJ did enough and have enough merits to spare the entire population of the city of Samarkland from slaughter (except for the first 10,000 or so that he didn't get to in time). who and what's to say that with helping of the conquest of the Song, he might hold enough sway to prevent the slaughter of Song citizens (which many eventually did die as casualties of war with the mongol invasion).

All the soldiers that he commanded had the utmost respect for him...even the soldiers that were in other units were openly respectful of him and with the declining health of GK and his imminent death, together with his anda Toulei, he just might have had enough power to preserve the Song from utter destruction (which was eventual with the fall of Xiang Yang).

[Ken Cheng]

sure...he'll be more or less a puppet ruler but it's not like it's THAT much better under the current regime. The Song citizens are always under pressure of being invaded, the government knows only of taxing its citizens to pay tributes to the Jin and whoever else is bullying the Song, the current emperor only knows how to enjoy the good life, the soldiers are abysmal to say the least.

With GJ at the helm, the common people at least have a champion for their cause and even though this is mostly speculation...i would think that there would be some sort of measure of peaceful living under the protection of the mongolian rule...they we're at that time...the up and coming power in all of Asia and soon to be the ruling power over most of it.

GJ did enough and have enough merits to spare the entire population of the city of Samarkland from slaughter (except for the first 10,000 or so that he didn't get to in time). who and what's to say that with helping of the conquest of the Song, he might hold enough sway to prevent the slaughter of Song citizens (which many eventually did die as casualties of war with the mongol invasion).

All the soldiers that he commanded had the utmost respect for him...even the soldiers that were in other units were openly respectful of him and with the declining health of GK and his imminent death, together with his anda Toulei, he just might have had enough power to preserve the Song from utter destruction (which was eventual with the fall of Xiang Yang).

The feasability of this scenario rests upon two assumptions that, based on both historical and LOCH descriptions of Genghis Khan's character, are founded on dubious grounds.

The first such assumption is that Genghis Khan was an honorable, trustworthy individual. This is a dubious assumption because we saw that Genghis, time and again, betrayed those who were closest to him in the name of ambition. Genghis was willing (albeit reluctantly) to turn against his anda brother, Jamorkha, because Jamorkha's continued existence was an obstacle to Genghis' plans for domination over Mongolia. Additionally, Genghis was willing to sacrifice the happiness of his daughter, Hua Jeng, to secure an alliance with the Kereit tribes by marrying Hua Jeng off to a man whom she didn't love (Doshi). Yau Chui Gei had warned Gwok Jing that Genghis Khan was not a trustworthy character, an idea that Gwok Jing was not prepared to accept until Genghis proved he was willing to betray Gwok Jing himself to further his ends. Could Gwok Jing trust such a character to spare the Han people enslavement and slaughter? I see no reason that he could.

The second assumption is that Genghis Khan had any compassion for people other than Mongolians. We saw how he slaughtered the Samarkandians and the Jurchen people. Those he didn't slaughter, he enslaved. To Genghis, non-Mongolian peoples were his property, and they either labored for him or endured his wrath. I do not see any reason to believe that if Genghis Khan had appointed Gwok Jing the King of Sung, he wouldn't have ordered Gwok Jing to enslave the population or exterminate it at his whim. If Gwok Jing resisted, the Khan would simply eliminate him.

[endo]

The feasability of this scenario rests upon two assumptions that, based on both historical and LOCH descriptions of Genghis Khan's character, are founded on dubious grounds.

The first such assumption is that Genghis Khan was an honorable, trustworthy individual. This is a dubious assumption because we saw that Genghis, time and again, betrayed those who were closest to him in the name of ambition. Genghis was willing (albeit reluctantly) to turn against his anda brother, Jamorkha, because Jamorkha's continued existence was an obstacle to Genghis' plans for domination over Mongolia. Additionally, Genghis was willing to sacrifice the happiness of his daughter, Hua Jeng, to secure an alliance with the Kereit tribes by marrying Hua Jeng off to a man whom she didn't love (Doshi). Yau Chui Gei had warned Gwok Jing that Genghis Khan was not a trustworthy character, an idea that Gwok Jing was not prepared to accept until Genghis proved he was willing to betray Gwok Jing himself to further his ends. Could Gwok Jing trust such a character to spare the Han people enslavement and slaughter? I see no reason that he could.

The second assumption is that Genghis Khan had any compassion for people other than Mongolians. We saw how he slaughtered the Samarkandians and the Jurchen people. Those he didn't slaughter, he enslaved. To Genghis, non-Mongolian peoples were his property, and they either labored for him or endured his wrath. I do not see any reason to believe that if Genghis Khan had appointed Gwok Jing the King of Sung, he wouldn't have ordered Gwok Jing to enslave the population or exterminate it at his whim. If Gwok Jing resisted, the Khan would simply eliminate him.

hmm...i dont' know ken...i'm still not convince GK was as untrustworthy as you put it. Regarding his anda Jamorka...GK never plotted to kill him. All he was doing was recruiting soldiers into his camp...and some of Jamorka's soldiers went over to his side. (his recruitment promise was to share any conquered wealth with ALL soldiers...not just the chieftains...that's much more honorable than the current system that the other tribes were in)

It was because of Wanyan Honglie's manipulation that Jamorka teamed up with Senggum to plot against GK which failed and Jamorka ended up as a captive to GK's army. At that point, their brotherhood was broken and GK even offered to be brothers again.

from the novel:

Jamuka took refuge at Tangnu Mountain with his five bodyguards. They betrayed him and brought him to Temujin. Temujin was furious, “Bodyguards who betray their master!” he cried. “How can I let such people live?” He ordered them decapitated in front of Jamuka.
Then he turned to Jamuka,
“Shall we become friends again?”
“Even if you spare my life,” answered Jamuka with tears in his eyes, “I haven't the honor left to live in this world. I only beg that you let me die without bloodshed, so that my soul will not leave my
body.”


as for Hua Jeng...i don't see any dishonor with that. He is the leader of his tribe...and back in those days...marriages were used to strengthen bonds between two tribes or used as pacifiers. There's tons of examples throughout history of marriages of this sort between different nations to be used as a mean to either pacify the two opposing forces or to unite them.


As for the slaughter of Samarkans...GK was enraged since he lost so many soldiers in trying to lay seige to the city and in his blind fury, ordered the massacre of the inhabitants instead of the usual enslavement. With GJ's merit and his request to spare their lives, the rest of the Samarkans were spared.

I really doubt they can enslave the entire Chinese population...nor kill them all. They would just be living under Mongolian rule as they did in the Yuan dynasty. But think about it...with GJ as the head of the Yuan dynasty...he could have accomplish a lot more for the common people than trying to put up a struggle for 20 years at XY with a cripple and helpless Song court.

[Ken Cheng]

With GJ's merit and his request to spare their lives, the rest of the Samarkans were spared.

Genghis was very reluctant to cede that to Gwok Jing, however, and did it only because he sort of felt he owed it to Gwok Jing. I don't see Genghis Khan making that exception for Gwok Jing too many times, however. To do so would be to undermine his own authority in the eyes of his own subjects. Where would Genghis Khan's authority be if he continually conceded his will to preferences of that "Han dog" Gwok Jing?

I really doubt they can enslave the entire Chinese population...nor kill them all.

The slaughter in northern China during the early 13th Century was pretty thorough. I don't have any exact numbers on hand, but historians have described it as being genocidal.

They would just be living under Mongolian rule as they did in the Yuan dynasty.

Which was pretty bad, as could be gathered from events in HSDS...and that was under the relatively mild leaders who came after Kublai Khan (Genghis was undoubtedly the most brutal of the lot). As corrupt and inept as the Sung government was, it hadn't taken to slaughtering or enslaving its own citizens. Gwok Jing himself recognized this and explained his reasoning to Kublai Khan during their meeting in ROCH.

[shenlong]

SZ's art of war should've been standard reading material for generals. I think YF's text delves into more detail and is a spin off from art of war, just like people today update research and make it better. Also, the art of war is very general and a lot of details and specifics can be added, which is where subsequent texts come into the fray.