Could Zhao Zhijing reproduce Miao Renfeng's "LDS"?

[PJ]

Previously in Guo Fu -vs- Miao Renfeng, it was identified that a half-injured Miao Renfeng could keep opponents at bay outside the distance of 8 feet. I interpret this to mean that his palm wind was effective to a distance of 8+ feet. At first, this may seem very impressive, even stacking up to the standards of Song era martial arts. However, is that the case?

In DGSD, there was such a passage:

鸠摩智掌声呼呼，群僧均觉这掌力刮面如刀，寒意侵体，便似到了高山绝顶，狂风四面吹袭。少林寺辈份较低的僧 侣渐渐抵受不住，一个个缩身向后，贴墙而立。玄字辈高僧自不怕掌力侵袭，但也各运内力抗拒。

Jiumozhi's palm wind felt like fiery cold wind blowing in your face. The low level Shaolin monks could not take it, so they began to step back. However, the Xuan-generation monks could withstand the palm wind by generating internal energy.

In this example, we can see that the more power you have, the more resistant you will be to palm winds.

Another example from HSDS:

张无忌和玄冥二老此时各运神功，数丈方圆之内劲风如刀，那三名好手怎能插得下手去？

No one could come within several zhangs to Zhang Wuji and Xuanming Elders because their palm wind felt like fiery blades scratching your face.

But suffice it is to say that a high level fighter would have no problem coming close to them.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is 2 things:

1) Miao Renfeng's opponents in FOX could not come within 8 feet of his palm wind, but that's because they are weak and cannot withstand palm winds.

2) It is nevertheless VERY imperssive for Miao Renfeng to do a 8 feet LDS. However, it makes me wonder whether weak fighters in Song era can do it or not. We have seen some subpar fighters such as Deng Baichuan and GREAT YIN YANG PALM Yue Hou demonstrate LDA-type feats. I wonder if people weaker than that, such as Zuo Zimu, could actually do a 8 feet LDS. It's possible that even if they can do it, the wind would be too weak to have an effect on anybody.

[PJ]

Oh by the way, I picked Zhao Zhijing to compare to Miao Renfeng just because he's the first person I thought of. We can compare anyone to Miao Renfeng.

I would sum up my above long post this way: we know some "weak" fighters can project their palm wind out, but how effective is it, and who can it be effective against, is the question.

Also, please feel free to speak your mind about this... either gut feeling or concrete evidence. I'm interested in both!

[flamer]

I think the actual depth of internal energy is still very much needed to do long-distance attacks. I dun think the likes of Zhao Zhijing will have the internal base to do such attacks.

[PJ]

Actually, I remember that Huang Yaoshi had a specific technique called Air-Splitting Palm (Bicong/Picong Zhang), and even (low-level?) LOCH Huang Rong could execute this technique. If that is the case, then the distance of an attack could be overrated all along. What really counts is the effectiveness.

[Ren Wo Xing]

The Air-Splitting Palm was not unique to Huang Yaoshi.

Here's an example of something a bit more fun, PJ, than boring old palm winds. There's so many examples of palm wind keeping someone at bay. How about SWORD wind?

This set of sword art was called the “Quick Blizzard Sword Stance,” and was created by Feng Buping while he lived in seclusion in Mount Zhongtiao for fifteen years. Each move would be even faster than the previous one, and the sound of wind gust would be louder and louder as well. It was the most valued sword art of his. Having some lofty aspirations, he not only wanted to head the entire Huashan Sword School, but also wished to become the chief of the Five Mountains Sword Alliance after getting the Head Master post. And this “Quick Blizzard Sword Stance” with one hundred and eight moves would have been the tool to help him achieve his goals. He really didn’t want to recklessly show this special skill of his, because once it was shown, it would no longer be a secret weapon of his, and if he got into fights with elite fighters, the enemy would have had precautions, and the effect of the set of sword arts would no longer be so dramatic. But there was no way to back down from the fight right now. If he couldn’t defeat Linghu Chong, he would lose all face right at this moment. He was pretty much forced into using it as the last resort.

This set of “Quick Blizzard Sword Stance” was incredibly powerful without a doubt. The force created by the blade extended slowly. The audience could feel the cold front moving toward them while the wind gusts blew onto their faces and hands harshly, making them very uncomfortable, so everyone stepped back more and more. The circle around the two fighters gradually grew bigger and bigger, and soon reached the size of fifty feet in diameter.

And these were some fighters which were better than Cheng Buyou, who earlier was considered 'first class'.

[PJ]

The Air-Splitting Palm was not unique to Huang Yaoshi.

Yes, Air-Splitting Palm is a general term to describe LD-type attacks. However, I'm just pointing out that Huang Yaoshi had a specific technique called the Air-Splitting Palm. And even LOCH Huang Rong could execute it.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Yup.

Hm...Feng Buping's sword wind was able to keep the 1st class fighters of that time away at a 25 foot radius. Sure seems pretty impressive, and he himself was probably only a 1st class fighter as well.

[ChronoReverse]

I've always dismissed the LDA arguments as a sole metric (sole as in it could be used as a direct comparison) because of how the technique can play into it. And then there's the whole issue of damage reduction (to borrow a DnD term)

[pannonian]

Yup.

Hm...Feng Buping's sword wind was able to keep the 1st class fighters of that time away at a 25 foot radius. Sure seems pretty impressive, and he himself was probably only a 1st class fighter as well.

Yet he was beaten by someone with no useable internal energy. SPW's martial arts defy explanation.

[ChronoReverse]

LHC had no usable internal energy but he had a large amount that does protect his internal organs (despite also killing him slowly). This enabled him to stand that close and then poke his sword in the right places.

[Ken Cheng]

Yes, Air-Splitting Palm is a general term to describe LD-type attacks. However, I'm just pointing out that Huang Yaoshi had a specific technique called the Air-Splitting Palm. And even LOCH Huang Rong could execute it.

Air-Splitting Palm (which I used to think was "Chest-Splitting Palm") also shows up in Gu Long's LUK SIU FUNG. Yeem Teet San was said to have known this technique.

[sarakoth]

GJ, with two years of QZ internal and a boost from drinking snake blood, was able to learn XL18P.

Zho Zhijing, with the proper technique, could probably do the same. I'm sure there's something in the QZ Sect's large arsenal that could accomplish that.

[ChanceEncounter]

Kind of circular logic/begging the question when you think about it, huh?

-> How do we know Qing Dynasty fighters were weaker?
-- Because they had weaker fighters/no internal.
-> What about Miao Renfeng's feat of keeping opponents at bay?
-- They were Qing Dynasty.

[the.raven]

assuming miao renfeng did it only because his opponents were weak ***, zhao zhi jing should have been able to do the same to weak *** characters. it doesnt matter if Qing dynasty's upper echelon of fighters is not as good as song dynasty, the weak *** characters are just as weak ***.

but zhao zhi jing did not demonstrate any such feat. why do you even compare zhao zhi jing to miao renfeng? even if miao is weak, he should at the very least be as pwoerful if not more powerful than Qiu chu ji.

[Ren Ying Ying]

assuming miao renfeng did it only because his opponents were weak ***, zhao zhi jing should have been able to do the same to weak *** characters. it doesnt matter if Qing dynasty's upper echelon of fighters is not as good as song dynasty, the weak *** characters are just as weak ***.

exactly the circular nature of the argument. i bring up chancy's first question
"How do we know Qing Dynasty fighters were weaker?"

[the.raven]

exactly the circular nature of the argument. i bring up chancy's first question
"How do we know Qing Dynasty fighters were weaker?"

thats why I said "it doesnt matter if"

[Trien Chieu]

Zhao Zhijing?? Absolutely not....
If Miao Renfeng may not be as good as Kwok Jing and the greats, but he is by far better than the loser Zhao Zhijing.
I would say Miao RenFeng is about as good as Qiu Qianren, the leader of Iron Palm Sect... I would say Miao Renfeng is better than Mei Chaofeng or at least at her level.

[flamer]

I would say Miao RenFeng is about as good as Qiu Qianren, the leader of Iron Palm Sect... I would say Miao Renfeng is better than Mei Chaofeng or at least at her level.

Whao thats a large jump.

[Extremer88]

Whao thats a large jump.

Trien always has great imaginations.

Miao Renfeng blocked Mei Chaofeng's 9Yin White Bone Claws!!

[PJ]

In HSDS, Monk Peng (who was at least 1 level below Yang Xiao) could also keep opponents at bay with his palm wind:

黑暗中影影绰绰的只见七八个人围着一个人相斗，中间那人赤手空拳，双掌飞舞，逼得敌人无法近身 。

All of his 8 opponents were using weapons, but they were not able to get close to Monk Peng due to his fierce palm wind. The exact distance wasn't specified, but I would estimate "not able to get close to [with a weapon extending out]" means > 5 feet.