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Thread: GJ at 70% of a Great at end of LOCH; could WY have made the 30% difference?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default GJ at 70% of a Great at end of LOCH; could WY have made the 30% difference?

    At the end of LOCH, Gwok Jing's martial arts prowess was approximately 70% that of a Great. By that point of the story, Wong Yung had mastered the Dog Beating Stick Technique and trained in some of the 9 Yum Jen Ging, meaning she was no slouch as a martial artist either. If she fought side-by-side with Gwok Jing, could she make up that 30% gap? Could the two of them fighting in tandem equal a Great...or at least push the proximity to 85-90%?

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    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Well, Guo Jing was at LEAST 70% of a Great; we don't know how much above that he was.

    Guo Jing + Huang Rong, assuming Huang Rong uses the Dog Beating Staff, can definitely take on or at least come close to taking on a Great by then.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    Well, Guo Jing was at LEAST 70% of a Great; we don't know how much above that he was.

    Guo Jing + Huang Rong, assuming Huang Rong uses the Dog Beating Staff, can definitely take on or at least come close to taking on a Great by then.
    In LOCH '82, the couple (at one point after Wong Yung had recovered from her Iron Palm injury) took on Kau Cheen Yan in tandem, and the battle was a stalemate until Ying Goo intervened (against the two principals). With Ying Goo keeping Wong Yung busy, Gwok Jing wasn't able to hold off Kau Cheen Yan for too long.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    In LOCH '82, the couple (at one point after Wong Yung had recovered from her Iron Palm injury) took on Kau Cheen Yan in tandem, and the battle was a stalemate until Ying Goo intervened (against the two principals). With Ying Goo keeping Wong Yung busy, Gwok Jing wasn't able to hold off Kau Cheen Yan for too long.
    I recall that happening in the book as well, and think by then, QQR was actually a little bit in trouble.

    Initially when he was fighting Guo Jing, Qiu Qianren had gradually gained an upper hand; but now Huang Rong came to Guo Jing’s rescue with her Dog Beating Stick technique, he was alone against two enemies. A dozen or so stances later he was forced to move back around the boat defending himself. His back was facing the water so that Huang Rong could not attack him from behind.

    Guo Jing launched several fierce attacks successively, but Qiu Qianren’s feet were as if nailed to the deck, he could not be pushed further even for half an inch. By now he was so close to the edge that one more step backward would make him fall into the river.
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 08-08-08 at 01:48 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    I recall that happening in the book as well, and think by then, QQR was actually a little bit in trouble.
    And Kau Cheen Yan was about 95% of a Great. Gwok Jing and Wong Yung would continue to improve from that point through the end of LOCH (but probably the Greats did as well), so by the time of the Second Mt. Hua Sword Tournament, the couple should be *at least* able to stalemate a Great.

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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    GJ at that point was not at the 70% yet.

    GJ reached that status after his intensive training for about a month when OYF captured him near the end of the book. During this time, GJ diligently trained many different skills from 9 Yin as well as his internal energy.


    Therefore, HR+GJ should be able to handle a Great.
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 08-08-08 at 10:28 AM.

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    I thought it was mentioned somewhere when they were in that shack in Mongolia that GJ was at 90% of Ouyang Feng.

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    They wouldn't be able to fight a Great unless they had a technique that could combine their fighting prowess. Otherwise, all the Great has to do is take out HR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sarakoth View Post
    I thought it was mentioned somewhere when they were in that shack in Mongolia that GJ was at 90% of Ouyang Feng.
    I don't see anything like that. Besides, if he was 90% of OYF then, why did he end up at around 70% later?

    They wouldn't be able to fight a Great unless they had a technique that could combine their fighting prowess. Otherwise, all the Great has to do is take out HR.
    Not really. GJ at this point could tie up a Great for quite a while solo. A Great fighting could not divert any attention. With HR and Dog-Beating Stick technique thrown into the mix, a Great would be hard pressed to win. He can still get away though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
    I don't see anything like that. Besides, if he was 90% of OYF then, why did he end up at around 70% later?
    I remember reading (though I might be wrong) that GJ is around 90% of OYF in the little shack but I think it's only speculation that he's 70% of a Great later (it's not specifically mentioned in the novel).

    If I'm right about the 90%, then the 70% doesn't apply.

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    There was a part where ZBT, QQR, OYF and GJ all smack a rock and their attack energies turned out to be roughly equal. However, this doesn't indicate much about overall fighting ability and in fact doesn't tell us much about maximum power of each fighter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sarakoth View Post
    I remember reading (though I might be wrong) that GJ is around 90% of OYF in the little shack but I think it's only speculation that he's 70% of a Great later (it's not specifically mentioned in the novel).
    It was in a sort of roundabout way. East Heretic Wong Yerk See began his duel with Gwok Jing using only 70% of his capacity, but came to realize that it wasn't going to be enough to overcome Gwok Jing (which logically means that Gwok Jing was probably actually > 70% of a Great at that point). After Wong Yerk See REALLY turned it on, however, Gwok Jing struggled to hold his own.

    Still, Wong Yerk See wasn't able to take it in 300 strokes after starting the fight at 70%.

    My feeling is that Wong could have done it in 301 strokes. He fell just one stroke short. That last stroke really seemed like it would break Gwok Jing's defense, but Wong just ran out of time.

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    HYS actually was worried and the tone/flow of the battle fell under Guo Jing's control; HYS thought that forget about winning slowly, he would actually lose if he continued to hold back like that. So GJ is definitely > 70% of HYS at that time.

    Keep in mind though, that HYS was fighting under a handicap as well; Guo Jing was fighting using Dragon Palms, whereas Huang Yaoshi was NOT using his Divine Flicking Fingers, but a different technique called the 'wu qi men', 'five strange doors'. It was stated in ROCH that his palm technique, although wonderful, was one level beneath the Sad Palms (and, by extension, beneath the Dragon Palms as well). Also, one of the reason the fight went on so long, even after HYS got more serious, seemed to me to be because, due to his holding back, Guo Jing had managed to seize the 'tempo' of the fight, and it took a while for him to recover it.
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 08-08-08 at 07:21 PM.
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    IIRC, it was not really 300 strokes either since WY was cheating with the count.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    Keep in mind though, that HYS was fighting under a handicap as well; Guo Jing was fighting using Dragon Palms, whereas Huang Yaoshi was NOT using his Divine Flicking Fingers, but a different technique called the 'wu qi men', 'five strange doors'..
    I remember reading that it's a new technique he specifically trained for the 2nd Huasan tournament to defeat other Greats. Don't think it's a handicap.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Candide View Post
    I remember reading that it's a new technique he specifically trained for the 2nd Huasan tournament to defeat other Greats. Don't think it's a handicap.
    It seemed pretty damn powerful. This was the stroke that I felt was going to break Gwok Jing's defense. As it was, it sent Gwok Jing into a spin that he almost couldn't stop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    IIRC, it was not really 300 strokes either since WY was cheating with the count.
    There was no indication that Huang Rong was cheating with the count. Having proposed the 300 stroke limit, she must have been confident that Guo Jing could last for 300 strokes against Huang Yaoshi and Hong Qigong, without any need for further help from her. HR couldn't have cheated with the count anyway, as the two Greats weren't only competing with GJ, but also with themselves to see who could beat GJ more quickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Candide View Post
    I remember reading that it's a new technique he specifically trained for the 2nd Huasan tournament to defeat other Greats. Don't think it's a handicap.
    From LOCH chapter 40:

    Seeing Guo Jing was unexpectedly able to withstand his more than ten
    years worth of ?qi men wu zhuan? [wonderful gate five revolutions]
    cultivation, Huang Yaoshi was not angry; on the contrary, he was happy.
    ?Old Beggar,? he said, ?I am useless, the title Number One in the World
    is yours.? He cupped his fists and turned around to leave.

    However, HYS might have competed with GJ before using one of his specialist internal skills. During the Three Tests chapter, GJ tried to disrupt HYS's flute melody by tapping his bamboo stick, and HYS responded. The first part of the quote is from HYS's contest with Ouyang Feng's zither. The second part of the quote is from HYS's contest with GJ. Both are from LOCH chapter 18:

    Initially Huang Rong watched these two played music with smile on her
    face; but afterwards she saw their expressions were getting serious. Her
    father stood up and started to walk around while blowing his flute. His
    steps were actually following the 'ba gua' [Eight Diagram]. She knew
    this was the footwork her father followed when he was cultivating his
    internal energy; showing her how fierce the battle was for her father
    that he was forced to use up all his strength. Turning toward Ouyang
    Feng she did not see anything better. Thick steam was coming out from
    the top of his head; his sleeves were fluttering following his hands'
    movement plucking the strings; creating gusts of wind blowing
    everywhere. His face looked seriously focused on his zither playing;
    obviously he did not dare to act careless.

    ...

    After half a day, the volume of the flute gradually decreased, make it
    difficult to be heard. Guo Jing stopped the bamboo tapping to listen.
    Unexpectedly to him, this was the moment Huang Yaoshi was waiting for;
    the softer the sound, the stronger the energy it carried. Because Guo
    Jing was listening attentively, his heart began to follow the beat of
    the flute. If it happened to other people, they would fell into the trap
    and would not be able to escape; but Guo Jing was different. He had
    learned the left/right mutual hands combat; he was capable of dividing
    his mind. So he used his left hand to take the shoe from his left foot
    to knock on the bamboo. "Knock! Knock! Knock!" again, disrupting the
    flute sound.

    Huang Yaoshi was startled, "This kid possesses some extraordinary
    skills, truly cannot be underestimated." He started to walk around
    according to the Eight Diagram while his mouth continued blowing.

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