Olympic 2008 - Women's Gymnastics

[Ren Ying Ying]

like I said there's a reason why the standard was set at 16, or else it would have been free age.

Bottom line, if you believe those kids are 16 years old I don't know what to say. After you account in the "asian look young thing" those girls are at best 14 (i've seen the older on on the team and she's much bigger than the smaller ones).

Just to prove how size effect the competition, the smallest one in the US team is also happen to be one of the best performers on the team.

some girls at 14 don't look so much different from girls at 16. some girls at 18 can still look like she's 12 (i know one). it happens, esp with smaller body frames..

and for the chinese girls, the littliest ones weren't exactly the best performers. small is good, but one or two centimeters arn't going to make the difference.

age VS performance?

how about this, plot me Age VS Size, then plot me Size VS performance, see if there's a correlation.

show that the correlation is ALWAYS descending. otherwise, younger is not ALWAYS better. 3 yr olds, will not do better.

[999roses]

age VS performance?

how about this, plot me Age VS Size, then plot me Size VS performance, see if there's a correlation.

i don't know why you even argue, the dude that made the claim is a grown *** man who's been teaching gymnastic for decades, he probably saw more girl gymnast than you and me combine in the next few hundred years. he knows what he's talking about.

And I still don't understand why you would disregarding physics when you're talking about sports. All sports is really just physics lol, if you disregard physics you can do some crazy shit, unfortunately that ain't gonna happen as long as you're on earth.

how do you figure they dig it up? these girls are pluck out of their house at around 3 years old, the gov do all the paper work, they can make these girls 100 years old and the paper work is still legit.

Sure, go plot those graphs now. You're the one who is making the claims, go do it. And even if it proves true (fat chance), there are confounding factors.

The thing you fail to understand is that you use a physics theory to improve yourself, but when you want to make a claim about a correlation, you need statistics to back it up. Physics can only HELP you improve, and nothing is guaranteed. Try using physics in a LAW COURT. See that you'll get laughed right out.

That man is a bitter old thing who knows he can do jack about anything which is why he was so grumpy. It's called unprofessionalism. If everything is based on what we see and our experiences, then why do we need a law? Why do we need evidence? What is the point?

You're just being a sore loser about it. Not "you" in particular, but people making this claim. You can argue until your throat runs dry, but at the end of the day, no evidence = accusation failed. It's basically now just whining.

[warlock110]

some girls at 14 don't look so much different from girls at 16. some girls at 18 can still look like she's 12 (i know one). it happens, esp with smaller body frames..

and for the chinese girls, the littliest ones weren't exactly the best performers. small is good, but one or two centimeters arn't going to make the difference.

true, that's why i said "one of the best" and not the best. obviously it doesn't apply all the time.

Like I said, this problem is well known over the years, it just happen that china didn't win before so no one cared. it's kindda wack now that they're pull that card on china, but the truth is the problem should be adressed a long time ago.

[warlock110]

Sure, go plot those graphs now. You're the one who is making the claims, go do it. And even if it proves true (fat chance), there are confounding factors.

The thing you fail to understand is that you use a physics theory to improve yourself, but when you want to make a claim about a correlation, you need statistics to back it up. Physics can only HELP you improve, and nothing is guaranteed. Try using physics in a LAW COURT. See that you'll get laughed right out.

That man is a bitter old thing who knows he can do jack about anything which is why he was so grumpy. It's called unprofessionalism. If everything is based on what we see and our experiences, then why do we need a law? Why do we need evidence? What is the point?

You're just being a sore loser about it. Not "you" in particular, but people making this claim. You can argue until your throat runs dry, but at the end of the day, no evidence = accusation failed. It's basically now just whining.

actually there have been many cases where physics was used in court as evidence. Normally with trafic cases physics can be use to determine the braking power/speed of a car. So yes, it's is usable in a court of law.

If you haven't realize, I'm just saying it to show you your flaw in conduction stats experiments, the problem here isn't age, it's more about size since age is a main variable that have a direct correlation to size. Example, i have no data, but I'm willing to claim age have a direct correlation to size, not everything have to be "data + stats", certain things are just so natural that people normally believe it's true.

you're right about evidence, but basing things from what we see/experience is one of the fundamental skill that many professional use, in fact most decisions in this world is base on what people experienced, that's where laws come from, laws doesn't just pop out of the blue, it's normally from what a group of people observe over a period of time.

I don't see this as a fail attempt, even if they can't prove these girls are underage, in future competitions the age requirement will be watch over much more carefully to ensure the fairness of the game. It's only 1 medals, paul hamm won the individual gold medal 4 years ago because of judges error but they didn't change the results.

[Ren Ying Ying]

If you haven't realize, I'm just saying it to show you your flaw in conduction stats experiments, the problem here isn't age, it's more about size since age is a main variable that have a direct correlation to size.

but size isn't the matter here. girls can stop growing around age 12 or 13. And as you've agreed, one or two centimeters isn't going to make the world's difference.

[999roses]

actually there have been many cases where physics was used in court as evidence. Normally with trafic cases physics can be use to determine the braking power/speed of a car. So yes, it's is usable in a court of law.

If you haven't realize, I'm just saying it to show you your flaw in conduction stats experiments, the problem here isn't age, it's more about size since age is a main variable that have a direct correlation to size. Example, i have no data, but I'm willing to claim age have a direct correlation to size, not everything have to be "data + stats", certain things are just so natural that people normally believe it's true.

you're right about evidence, but basing things from what we see/experience is one of the fundamental skill that many professional use, in fact most decisions in this world is base on what people experienced, that's where laws come from, laws doesn't just pop out of the blue, it's normally from what a group of people observe over a period of time.

I don't see this as a fail attempt, even if they can't prove these girls are underage, in future competitions the age requirement will be watch over much more carefully to ensure the fairness of the game. It's only 1 medals, paul hamm won the individual gold medal 4 years ago because of judges error but they didn't change the results.

Don't take my words out of context. I said when you're doing that correlation, you can't use physics to do it. I never said physics can't be used for other things in court.

Yeah, but when the IOC already made a decision, and people are still complaining, basically what they are doing is whining.

No one said they shouldn't watch the age limit. Just to shut up about this one because you can't prove anything.

It's stupid because if someone made such a claim about the affairs of a coach and judge based on "what is normally considered inappropriate actions", you would be slapped with a lawsuit SO FAST. Yet it seems okay for these people to make cheap blows at these girls?

[warlock110]

but size isn't the matter here. girls can stop growing around age 12 or 13. And as you've agreed, one or two centimeters isn't going to make the world's difference.

we're probably not talking about 1-2 cm, we're talking about 4'9 VS 5' on average. And no girls don't completely stop growing at 12, actually that's not even close, male are ~21 and female are around 14-16, but they don't "stop" growing, they just grow at a much slower pace, hense why you see retired gymnist are usually bigger than when they were competing, could be a factor that they're not doing as much exercising, but people normally grow for a while even after their growth spurt.

If i get 3 extra inches I'll be happy as hell too haha. I'm not taking any credit from those girls, they were better performers for sure, but due to the regulation, people just suspect that they might be underage. Not sure why they wouldn't make it age free, they made diving age free because I see the british kid that's like 12.

[warlock110]

Don't take my words out of context. I said when you're doing that correlation, you can't use physics to do it. I never said physics can't be used for other things in court.

Yeah, but when the IOC already made a decision, and people are still complaining, basically what they are doing is whining.

No one said they shouldn't watch the age limit. Just to shut up about this one because you can't prove anything.

It's stupid because if someone made such a claim about the affairs of a coach and judge based on "what is normally considered inappropriate actions", you would be slapped with a lawsuit SO FAST. Yet it seems okay for these people to make cheap blows at these girls?

I'm not taking your words out of context, you said it yourself and I quote it
"Try using physics in a LAW COURT. See that you'll get laughed right out.", my english is horrible, maybe I misunderstood.

I know wikipedia isn't a great reference but take a look at this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height

Scroll down to "in sport" section, it's got a small explaination of how "physics" "height" are relating to "sports"

Like I said before, this is just an attempt as a warning for using underage girls, just a prevention method for future competition, it's not a cheap shot at the girls, at best it's a cheap shot at the Chinese gov.

Watch, a few days later when they have track and fields and the athletes that american "bought" from some african country wins they'll talk about that shit too, it's just the nature of the game.

PS: You should watch that show "sport science", it really explains alot of stuff about sports/math/physics, pretty cool show if you have some free time.

[Ren Ying Ying]

we're probably not talking about 1-2 cm, we're talking about 4'9 VS 5' on average. And no girls don't completely stop growing at 12, actually that's not even close, male are ~21 and female are around 14-16, but they don't "stop" growing, they just grow at a much slower pace, hense why you see retired gymnist are usually bigger than when they were competing, could be a factor that they're not doing as much exercising, but people normally grow for a while even after their growth spurt.

i said around 12. could be 13 or 14. there's the year or two of the "super growth". most asian girls i know "stopped growing" in middle school...that's about 12/13ish. there's still slight growth after the "jump" but it's usually less than an inch. a centimeter might even be significant at that point.

and the average doesn't mean much. it's much easeir finding shorter chinese girls than shorter caucasian american girls...not to mention there's 1.3 billion chinese to choose from. it's not hard looking for super short kids.

[999roses]

I'm not taking your words out of context, you said it yourself and I quote it
"Try using physics in a LAW COURT. See that you'll get laughed right out.", my english is horrible, maybe I misunderstood.

I know wikipedia isn't a great reference but take a look at this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height

Scroll down to "in sport" section, it's got a small explaination of how "physics" "height" are relating to "sports"

Like I said before, this is just an attempt as a warning for using underage girls, just a prevention method for future competition, it's not a cheap shot at the girls, at best it's a cheap shot at the Chinese gov.

Watch, a few days later when they have track and fields and the athletes that american "bought" from some african country wins they'll talk about that shit too, it's just the nature of the game.

PS: You should watch that show "sport science", it really explains alot of stuff about sports/math/physics, pretty cool show if you have some free time.

Do you understand what "taking out of context" means? It's when you take 1 line and do not take the whole thing. 1 line is NOT IN CONTEXT. Whatever, I'm not wasting my time on that anymore. You believe what you want.

And lucky for the Americans, buying athletes is just frowned upon, but not considered "cheating". Unluckily for the Chinese, claims about forging age is considered cheating.

[warlock110]

btw, I think what I said was lost some where in the early post.

One of the chinese girls in the 2000 olympic said she was 14 in an interview. lol, if people want to argue they'll probably come up with some stuff like "well that girl probably hit her head on the bar during the performance and forgot her age"....

Oh yeah, it's caught on tape since it's an interview, but that's not good enough evidence since tape in the year 2000 is probably wack, she probably said she was 24 but the wacky tape recorded as "14".

[999roses]

And this interview is....where now? Link please?

Lol....I'm not saying I don't believe you, but you're making it really hard to believe. You talk about this vague "tape" and vague "interview" without naming any particular station or interviewer. You can't just say things out of the blue and expect it to serve as evidence.

[Ren Ying Ying]

btw, I think what I said was lost some where in the early post.

One of the chinese girls in the 2000 olympic said she was 14 in an interview. lol, if people want to argue they'll probably come up with some stuff like "well that girl probably hit her head on the bar during the performance and forgot her age"....

Oh yeah, it's caught on tape since it's an interview, but that's not good enough evidence since tape in the year 2000 is probably wack, she probably said she was 24 but the wacky tape recorded as "14".

i don't know about you, but i've forgotten my age sometimes. maybe she was 15 and still thought she was 14?

[~Dan~]

Here's one article:

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/summer...ory?id=3507084

Yeah, it doesn't conclude anything, but you can't blame some people for being suspicious.

[jadebunny9]

Actually I've also heard of that interview. But I don't think it was any of these girls...just that some girl from one of the previous competitions admitted that she was underage after the whole thing was over. It just shows that China does not have a clean record, but then again, it's not the only country.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Not that I think there's anything wrong with younger girls compete (although it's against the rules), but if you tell me those girls are 16+, then you're a liar or seriously deluded, whoever this hypothetical 'you' might be.

Congratulations to China for winning. That being said, if those girls are much older then twelve, then I'm a f.ucking 太监.

[999roses]

Wow, we have another psychic on the team. Why don't you go cut it off right now then? You seriously remind me of that Chinese coach who swore he would go jump off the Beijing tower. So ridiculous. Just go do it now then.

Honestly, it's sad to believe the things that are jumping out of people's mouths these days.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Wow, we have another psychic on the team. Why don't you go cut it off right now then? You seriously remind me of that Chinese coach who swore he would go jump off the Beijing tower. So ridiculous. Just go do it now then.

Honestly, it's sad to believe the things that are jumping out of people's mouths these days.

I won't cut it, because there's no way in hell all those girls are 16+. Maybe this is the first time you've seen a Chinese person, but it isn't mine. Maybe this is the first time you've ever heard Chinese voices, but it isn't mine. Their bodies are not developed as any healthy 16 year olds are, their faces are not that of any 16 year olds, and their voices sure as hell aren't that of 16 year olds either.

I glanced through the thread and saw your repeated requests for 'proof'. Um, considering all types of proof of a person's age are subject to government manipulation, and considering the accusation is PRECISELY that they were subject to government manipulation, there's no 'hard' proof possible, which is why the girls haven't been expelled, but there's quite a bit of circumstantial evidence.

Take He Kexin, for example. The Chengdu sports bureau listed her as being born in 1994, and the China Daily wrote that she's 14, and the national director of sports referred to her as being 13 in 2007. She has neither the face, the body, nor the voice of any 16 year old Chinese girl that I've ever met. And against all that, we have...a passport, which is provided and verified by the very entity which is suspected of falsifying her age.

So let's put it another way for you. She looks like she's 14, she sounds like she's 14, she's built like she's 14, and various government individuals and agencies refer to her as being 14. Yeah. It sure is hard to understand and sad to believe that people think she's 14. It's really shocking.

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck, then chances are, it's a duck. I'm not psychic. I'm just a person with eyeballs that function, and a brain that works. Check your own.

[jadebunny9]

As I mentioned earlier, it was the Chinese press who brought up the suspicions in the first place. The US was not hating and making a deal out of this if there wasn't anything to be made a deal of.

I would say more, but of course I wouldn't sound as eloquent as Mr. Rennie up there, so I'll pass. But I fully agree with him. Even the girl who's reported to be 20 doesn't look 20 at all. There is no way she's only one year younger than me.

[Guo Xiang]

As I mentioned earlier, it was the Chinese press who brought up the suspicions in the first place. The US was not hating and making a deal out of this if there wasn't anything to be made a deal of.

I would say more, but of course I wouldn't sound as eloquent as Mr. Rennie up there, so I'll pass. But I fully agree with him. Even the girl who's reported to be 20 doesn't look 20 at all. There is no way she's only one year younger than me.

You mean you looks younger than she does?