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Thread: 'Thousand jin' of force - Duan Yanqing

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    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Default 'Thousand jin' of force - Duan Yanqing

    The term 'thousand jin' of force is often used by Jinyong to symbolize the tremendous amount of power a particularly strong person might exert, or a blow from him. And yet, I think I've discovered a case where a person literally was able to exert thousands of jin of force.

    In DGSD, Duan Yanqing was himself able to roll open and shut a huge stone boulder which blocked the doorway of the stone house, using it to keep Duan Yu and Mu Wanqing prisoner. It was later specifically stated in the book that the stone weighed thousands of jin. So in absolute seriousness, it seems clear and unquestionable to me that Duan Yanqing, one of the weaker 'top tier' fighters in TLBB, is literally able to exert a force of thousands of jin.

    Are there any other examples of people literally exerting a thousand (or thousands) of jin of force?
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    Senior Member sarakoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    The term 'thousand jin' of force is often used by Jinyong to symbolize the tremendous amount of power a particularly strong person might exert, or a blow from him. And yet, I think I've discovered a case where a person literally was able to exert thousands of jin of force.

    In DGSD, Duan Yanqing was himself able to roll open and shut a huge stone boulder which blocked the doorway of the stone house, using it to keep Duan Yu and Mu Wanqing prisoner. It was later specifically stated in the book that the stone weighed thousands of jin. So in absolute seriousness, it seems clear and unquestionable to me that Duan Yanqing, one of the weaker 'top tier' fighters in TLBB, is literally able to exert a force of thousands of jin.

    Are there any other examples of people literally exerting a thousand (or thousands) of jin of force?
    JLGS was able to execute a thousand jin of force with his Dragon Elephant lvl 10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sarakoth View Post
    JLGS was able to execute a thousand jin of force with his Dragon Elephant lvl 10.
    Right, but that 'thousand jin' is a literary technique symbolizing a huge strength, as opposed to an exact amount of force. As I said in my post, it's a commonly used phrase. In Duan Yanqing's case, we know he utilized a force of several thousand jin, because the stone weighed that much.
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    Senior Member ChanceEncounter's Avatar
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    If he "rolled" it, he didn't exert 1000 jin of force.

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    Is that the same rock that was later moved by the combined forces of Evil #2, Evil #3, Evil #4, and HE WHO KILLS OTHERS AT SIGHT Zhong Wanchou? Those 4 guys combined are likely not as strong as Duan Yanqing, so if they combined can move it, it's convincing that Duan Yanqing could do the same or better.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Agree with ChanceEncounter. If it's rolling it's not quite that crazy.


    Just a question. How heavy was the urn carried by QCJ at the beginning of LOCH? I'd like to see what it says in Chinese.

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    Senior Member ChanceEncounter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Is that the same rock that was later moved by the combined forces of Evil #2, Evil #3, Evil #4, and HE WHO KILLS OTHERS AT SIGHT Zhong Wanchou? Those 4 guys combined are likely not as strong as Duan Yanqing, so if they combined can move it, it's convincing that Duan Yanqing could do the same or better.
    The four combined can't BEAT DYQ, but it doesn't mean that the four combined aren't physically as strong (in raw force) as DYQ.

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    Here is the line in the original Chinese:

    "但见大石滚开,露出一道门户,望进去黑黝黝的,瞧不清屋内情景。" The term 'rolled' aside was used; however, it is highly unlikely that the boulder was perfectly round. Although it was 'rolled' aside, several thousand 'jin' of force would still have needed to been applied in order to get it moving in the first place: Force = Mass times acceleration, after all.

    Also, Duan Yanqing was able to seal the room in the blink of an eye with a boulder; Mu Wanqing didn't even have the chance to escape. So it wasn't enough for him to simply generate the force he needed to get it moving; he had to make it move quickly as well.
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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    No, you don't need to apply 1000 pounds to roll a 1000 pound object. There's this thing called torque.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChanceEncounter View Post
    The four combined can't BEAT DYQ, but it doesn't mean that the four combined aren't physically as strong (in raw force) as DYQ.
    I don't think we're just talking about raw force here...
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
    No, you don't need to apply 1000 pounds to roll a 1000 pound object. There's this thing called torque.
    1) It definitely wasn't perfectly round; it was described as having various cracks, crevices, and openings all around it.

    2) Duan Yanqing didn't just 'roll' the boulder slowly; he moved the thousands-of-jin weight boulder so quickly that he was able to trap Mu Wanqing in the room with it before she even had the chance to turn around.

    Here is the passage where the stone is first described: "只听得轰隆一声,屋门已被什么重物封住。她大吃一惊,抢到门口伸手去推时,着手处粗糙异常,原来是一块花 岗巨岩。"

    The effect of torque should be relatively minimal, especially considering how quickly Duan Yanqing moved the boulder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
    Just a question. How heavy was the urn carried by QCJ at the beginning of LOCH? I'd like to see what it says in Chinese.
    The urn was quite light; it weighed only 400 jin or so.
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    Senior Member ChanceEncounter's Avatar
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    Force = mass * acceleration, but the standard unit for mass is in kg and Force is in Newtons. It's not the same as using the raw numbers.

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    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    speaking of figurative or literal...was the "thousand jin" rock itself a figurative or literal term? was it really "exactly" 1000 jin?

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    Now my question is, what's so great about 1000 jin? Why not another number? Since they're at it, why don't they go for 10,000 jin instead? Now that would be impressive.

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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    The effect of torque should be relatively minimal, especially considering how quickly Duan Yanqing moved the boulder.
    If it's not a block, the torque has a huge deal. I don't think you understand why a rounded object is far far easier to move.

    And how fast you move a boulder doesn't change the factor torque plays. It's not even related at all. It'd be like saying "Since the sun was shining, my microwave cooked my popcorn quicker."

    Also, a rounded object can be moved quicker than a flat-bottomed object for what I hope is an obvious reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying View Post
    speaking of figurative or literal...was the "thousand jin" rock itself a figurative or literal term? was it really "exactly" 1000 jin?
    It wasn't 'thousand jin'; it was thousands of jin, making it a literal term.

    If it's not a block, the torque has a huge deal. I don't think you understand why a rounded object is far far easier to move.

    And how fast you move a boulder doesn't change the factor torque plays. It's not even related at all. It'd be like saying "Since the sun was shining, my microwave cooked my popcorn quicker."

    Also, a rounded object can be moved quicker than a flat-bottomed object for what I hope is an obvious reason.
    Two things; one, how fast you move a boulder doesn't change the torque factor, but it does change the force used factor; since F=MA, if you accelerate the boulder extremely rapidly (as seems to be the case), then the force used is correspondingly greater as well. Whether or not torque can be used to reduce the amount of force necessary is totally unrelated to the fact that a superior amount of force is needed to accelerate an object with great speed, which is the point I was making.

    Second, although the boulder itself may be rounded, that doesn't mean it will be round-bottomed; in fact, very few boulders in a flat field are round-bottomed and not flat-bottomed. As I posted, the rock was described as a "花岗巨岩", which is why I do not think that it should be round-bottomed. Granite tends to be rather blocky, although admittedly this is speculation.
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 08-18-08 at 05:20 PM.
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    How about the boulder Zhang Wuji uses in that four on one fight at Brightness Peak? Is its weight given in the original text?

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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Erm, this isn't a stage prop or a cartoon. You'd be hard pressed to find a boulder in a field that isn't rounded and sunk in the ground at least a bit. Finding a boulder that's flat on the bottom is tricky. In any case, it doesn't matter since the real question is if the boulder was rolled or slid.

    As for the torque issue, the point is that you need considerably less force to move the boulder. The point about the roundedness is that accelerating a rolling object is many times easier than sliding one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
    Erm, this isn't a stage prop or a cartoon. You'd be hard pressed to find a boulder in a field that isn't rounded and sunk in the ground at least a bit. Finding a boulder that's flat on the bottom is tricky. In any case, it doesn't matter since the real question is if the boulder was rolled or slid.

    As for the torque issue, the point is that you need considerably less force to move the boulder. The point about the roundedness is that accelerating a rolling object is many times easier than sliding one.
    I accept the torque point; torque would apply in any case, whether it was round or blocky; I just do not feel that it would have diminished the force needed so much, as aside from the single character 'rolled' (which would be the natural word used to describe moving a boulder), there is no indication that the boulder is round in shape, and several that its shape is rather irregular.

    And, even giving that torque decreased the amount of force needed by, say, 50%, how much additional force was needed to accelerate the boulder so rapidly so as to seal the doorway with it before Mu Wanqing even managed to react?

    I just feel that using torque to discount all of that is a bit off.
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