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Thread: What would happen if sports competitions were not based on nationality?

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    Senior Member 999roses's Avatar
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    Default What would happen if sports competitions were not based on nationality?

    Music competitions are rarely China vs. US vs. Canada vs. Australia, etc. The top Chopin piano competitions, etc. just choose the BEST pianists, regardless of nationality. Same with ballet, same with many other forms of art.

    Yes, I know that sports are very different from art.

    I think that team sports should always be based on some sort of nationality or geographical region (e.g. city, like Lakers, Raptors).

    For individual sports, such as ping pong, gymnastics, figure skating, (although I guess the latter two do have "teams" but they could form a national team just for that sole TEAM gymnastics or TEAM figure skating) and then have all the other individual events (pommel horse, rings, all around) just go to the best individual.

    I think this could be a way for sports in general to get less political. For example, no one ever complains about loyalties etc. when a Chinese musician goes to the US to study with the top music gurus and accomplish great things there. They are still respected as a Chinese individual who was able to excel in music. And vice versa. But with sports, it's sometimes seen as directly opposing your country, etc.

    I think there shouldn't be nationality boundaries for many sports. I can already imagine this idea will VASTLY unpopular because most people watch sports to cheer on their city, country, or whatever, and I do too.

    But once I got to read more about the athletes themselves, I feel that it isn't important what country they're from. It's more about the athletes themselves.

    This is probably highly impractical though because of funding for training. If there is no incentive for the government, then they simply won't fund these individuals.

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    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    ppl like to root for sports, but i hardly see ppl root for music except those that really appreciate it. on top of that, ppl tend to like to root for groups they feel connected to (ie. school sports are the same). sports itself may not need nationality...but if sports want spectators, they need to create divisions and "teams"--in the case of a big international event like the olympics, nationality divisions.

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    Senior Member 999roses's Avatar
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    I guess that the point of having it divided by nationality was so athletes/coaches would go with their own national team (and this doesn't have to be based on race or birth place or anything...but basically where they got the vast majority of their own training from).

    But it becomes kind of pointless when the richer and more powerful countries now (US, Canada, and even China now) are starting to "attract' the better athletes with money/other incentives.

    Then what is the point of having these delinations if athletes/coaches are going to go "shopping" for the best deals? I know not all of them do, and even if they do, it's not really right to judge since everyone is selfish at one point in their lives, but I just find it kind of countering the original intention to cheer for your home team.

    Because now you're cheering for borrowed/bought talent. If they got rid of this whole nationality thing, then it wouldn't be as much of an issue.

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    Senior Member Guo Xiang's Avatar
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    I guess that the point of having it divided by nationality was so athletes/coaches would go with their own national team (and this doesn't have to be based on race or birth place or anything...but basically where they got the vast majority of their own training from).

    But it becomes kind of pointless when the richer and more powerful countries now (US, Canada, and even China now) are starting to "attract' the better athletes with money/other incentives.
    Yeah, my colleague was confused too. She remarked how strange it is because the China team has white coaches while the US team has Chinese coaches.
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    Senior Member ChanceEncounter's Avatar
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    This kind of question is like asking what would happen if sports were not based on competition.

    It would suck. That's what's going to happen.

    When you have people and teams competing against each other in an effort to outdo the other competitors, you're going to have some people bring in politics. The comparison to art is way off base.

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    Senior Member 999roses's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChanceEncounter View Post
    This kind of question is like asking what would happen if sports were not based on competition.

    It would suck. That's what's going to happen.

    When you have people and teams competing against each other in an effort to outdo the other competitors, you're going to have some people bring in politics. The comparison to art is way off base.
    Uh not really. Just because you are not competing based on nationality doesn't mean that individuals can't compete against each other. It's just what people are accustomed to cheering for, but it's not like things can't change. It'll just take longer.

    It was a mere example, but the fact is, both do have competitions so there is some basis of comparison. Just the fact that people don't cheer for music competitions as much as noted by Ren Ying Ying.

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    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 999roses View Post
    Uh not really. Just because you are not competing based on nationality doesn't mean that individuals can't compete against each other. It's just what people are accustomed to cheering for, but it's not like things can't change. It'll just take longer.

    It was a mere example, but the fact is, both do have competitions so there is some basis of comparison. Just the fact that people don't cheer for music competitions as much as noted by Ren Ying Ying.
    but thing is...who are the spectators going to be? it is rare that people become fans of athletes alone. even non nationality based competitions drive their fans from a certain area. ie. the lakers' fan base will likely be in los angeles. and there are school sports, where you cheer for your school, etc. so, as long as the concept of "nationality" exists in the world, then there will be competition based on nationality.

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    Senior Member 999roses's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying View Post
    but thing is...who are the spectators going to be? it is rare that people become fans of athletes alone. even non nationality based competitions drive their fans from a certain area. ie. the lakers' fan base will likely be in los angeles. and there are school sports, where you cheer for your school, etc. so, as long as the concept of "nationality" exists in the world, then there will be competition based on nationality.
    But that's more for team sports. People cheer on Tiger Woods even though he's American and what-not, but that's not the main reason why they do. It's because Tiger Woods is BIG in the golfing industry. Why can't that happen for other sports too? There are "stars" for every sport and people do remember their names. I'm sure that if Michael Phelps suddenly decided to go swim for Germany or China, his fans would still cheer for him. It's not because he is American, or representing Germany/China, but because he is Michael Phelps, the amazing individual who swims like a beast.

    I do agree about the divisions thing, and I guess that's what you're implying when you talk about "nationality". Because like you already pointed out, school teams from the same NATION are pitted against each other during other sporting events. So it doesn't have to be about nationality.

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    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    right, there are certain atheletes who make it big on individual basis. but not all sports are popular enough to generate fans for everyone.

    how many people outside of the swimming community knew about michael phelps prior to 2004? The guy had began breaking records in 2001. how many people actually make a note to watch gymnastics when it's not the olympics? etc.

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    Senior Member ChanceEncounter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 999roses View Post
    Uh not really. Just because you are not competing based on nationality doesn't mean that individuals can't compete against each other. It's just what people are accustomed to cheering for, but it's not like things can't change. It'll just take longer.

    It was a mere example, but the fact is, both do have competitions so there is some basis of comparison. Just the fact that people don't cheer for music competitions as much as noted by Ren Ying Ying.
    What you're asking for is for global changes in identity. As long as there is competition, the competitors will have their own identities, be more tied to certain locations and nationalities, and the spectators will root for them for varying social and cultural reasons.

    This is not the same as art, where the spectators go primarily for enjoyment and appreciation.

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    Senior Member 999roses's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying View Post
    right, there are certain atheletes who make it big on individual basis. but not all sports are popular enough to generate fans for everyone.

    how many people outside of the swimming community knew about michael phelps prior to 2004? The guy had began breaking records in 2001. how many people actually make a note to watch gymnastics when it's not the olympics? etc.
    Well for the people who do care, they will watch it just for the sport. Even now, not all sports are equally popular anyway.


    Quote Originally Posted by ChanceEncounter View Post
    What you're asking for is for global changes in identity. As long as there is competition, the competitors will have their own identities, be more tied to certain locations and nationalities, and the spectators will root for them for varying social and cultural reasons.

    This is not the same as art, where the spectators go primarily for enjoyment and appreciation.
    I'm not "asking" for this change, I'm just saying, what would happen if it did occur hypothetically. I know this is not the "current situation".

    I think you're misunderstanding my point. From the beginning, I didn't say sports competitions were the SAME or even SIMILAR to art/music competitions. I'm just saying that I don't see why sports can't evolve to go that similar route where people root for individual athletes.

    And really...I think the fine line between arts and sports isn't so clean everytime. There is ARTISTIC gymnastics, where there is a heavy arts portion even though it's a sports. Same with figure skating.

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    Senior Member ChanceEncounter's Avatar
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    There is a HUGE difference between art and sport.

    In arts, you have competitions, but that is not the apex of the sport. You have dance competitions, music competitions, but in the end of the day, the very best in the genre simply put on performances. In fact, you'll see Carnegie Hall performers see competition musicians as a step below. You'll see Mariinsky and Bolshoi ballet dancers feel that competitive ballet dancers are too rehearsed and are not up to par expressively.

    In sports, it's the reverse. The ultimate goal is to beat your competitors. The NBA is considered the highest level of basketball because the best players play there and attempt to beat each other. The ATP is the top in tennis, because the best players are there and attempt to beat each other. The PGA is the best in the golf world because... you guessed it, the best players in the world play there and attempt to beat each other. Lower, more 'performance' oriented teams, such as the Harlem Globetrotters, or the And 1 Mixtape Tour, are not seen on the same level as the NBA.

    There lies the fundamental difference between art and sport. Art is not competitive. It's meant to push the limits of expressiveness. Sports, by definition, is competitive, and it's meant to beat the opponent that faces you.

    The only way sport will be more like art is if you a.) fundamentally eliminate the competitive axiom that sports represents or b.) call for a global change in the way people identify themselves. People identify each other by nation, by region, etc.

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    Senior Member 999roses's Avatar
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    I agree that in general , sports are more competitive than arts. However, I think the top music competitions are JUST AS much about beating your competitors. Because if you want that scholarship/prize/honor at the end of the day, only one person can get it. It's a VERY similar idea to performing your best on the day of, and perhaps taking advantage of your competitors messing up on the piano or something under the stress.

    Art is a bit different because there's less "live" competitions, but for music...it's very much similar to that mood.

    For the audience, PERHAPS musical/dance competitions are more "enjoyable" although I think it really depends. But for the competitors themselves, they are not having the best time of their life performing. It's very much about competition.

    To be the "very best", you have to go through MANY of these "competitions" whether informal or formal to get to a point where you can just "perform" without competing.

    It's the same idea with Olympic figure skaters like Kurt Browning putting on shows on ice. No one is gonna watch him unless he has been through competitions where he has won silver or whatever it was that he won. So he is "validated" as good enough to just perform without competing because the competition already took place.

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    Senior Member KeongJai's Avatar
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    Aren't most international sporting tournaments based on individual competitors rather than nationality?

    tennis comps, golf comps, champions league, F1 aren't based on nationality.

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    Senior Member flamer's Avatar
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    There are less people who can appreciate art than those who can appreciate sport.

    The spirit of sports is to compete and improve. I see nothing wrong with competition based on nationality. It fosters contructive competition.

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