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Thread: China in Africa

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    Default China in Africa

    http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/...in-africa.html

    A 6-parts special report on China's economic expansion in sub-Saharan Africa. Informative and thought-provoking, the article offers a glimpse into the opaque neo-colonialism relationship between Beijing and various sub-Saharan countries; implicit in it all is how Western consumerism is the complicit silent partner behind the whole exploitation scheme.

    Chinese endgame in Africa is to opt out of the international system for commodity prices altogether. While Western industries and manufacturers fight and jockey for artificially-inflated concessions and options, China has decided to go directly to the source and get it cheaper. In this instance, they've outthink and outmaneuvered the West by several decades, as illustrated by the following:

    "On the day I arrived in Kinshasa, I watched a team of exhausted Congolese investigators holed up inside the mining industry until late at night. Stacks of yellowing contracts were piled high on the floor, representing 60 joint ventures the country had signed since 1997, mainly with operators from America, Australia, Britain, Canada, and Israel. With occasional help from Ernst & Young, Rothschild of Paris, and the U.S.-based (Jimmy) Carter Center, Kasongo's deputies were reviewing every detail, a process that has now taken a year. "Every contract is significantly flawed," a British adviser to Kasongo tells me. "Many of the deals were corrupt, and patently so."

    Kasongo explains that only 5 of the 60 deals were producing minerals, while 6 projects were still in the feasibility-study stage. "And 49 are sitting there waiting for ... what, I don't know," he fumes. "Expertise? Financing? Investors? A better time to market?" Congo urgently needs those mines to come on line, he says, in order to keep the economy moving, however slowly. But 22 of these "partners" aren't actively mining at all -- they're riding the spike in raw-material prices, "making a fortune with rising share prices" on stock exchanges from Vancouver to New York to London to Johannesburg. "They are mining the stock exchanges, not the mines!" Kasongo exclaims. "We can demonstrate that $17 billion of [stock-market value] is built on a lie to the world. People make their bucks and forget about us. We need water and electricity. The Chinese say, 'We need minerals for growing, and you need infrastructure.' So we have the same interests."
    "A girl asked me if she should spent money to change the way she look, I told her that she should use it to change her personality instead."

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    Investing in Africa is very very risky... Better invest elsewhere....
    Most western countries do not want to take that risk...
    Last edited by Trien Chieu; 09-10-08 at 08:09 PM.

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    That's why China is making off like a bandit over there. Most Western companies are still held responsible by their shareholders, while China has a lot of money and don't care much for pesky things like 'democracy/human rights/or limiting corruption'.
    "A girl asked me if she should spent money to change the way she look, I told her that she should use it to change her personality instead."

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    Quote Originally Posted by levendis d'orange View Post
    That's why China is making off like a bandit over there. Most Western companies are still held responsible by their shareholders, while China has a lot of money and don't care much for pesky things like 'democracy/human rights/or limiting corruption'.

    China is being smarter than other countries regarding that aspect. Who give a shit about what they do to their own citizens, it's none of anyone else business. In fact, it's easier to deal with corrupted governments as you can get way better deal. Business should be about money, not democracy, human rights nor corruption.
    Last edited by Trien Chieu; 01-16-10 at 11:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    China is being smarter than other countries regarding that aspect. Who give a shit about what they do to their own citizens, it's none of anyone else business. In fact, it's easier to deal with corrupted governments as you can get way better deal. Business should be about money, not democracy, human rights nor corruption.
    Surely though that you would have wanted equality, democracy and human rights right?

    Otherwise why would you or your family decided to live in North America rather than under the dictatorial rule of some countries?

    And why would you not want the same for your fellow human beings too?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bliss
    I think they're probably at the same level as or one level below Ah Qing, which is about the level of a 2nd or 3rd generation Quan Zhen disciple.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Han Solo View Post
    Surely though that you would have wanted equality, democracy and human rights right?

    Otherwise why would you or your family decided to live in North America rather than under the dictatorial rule of some countries?

    And why would you not want the same for your fellow human beings too?

    Han Solo
    Because business world is about money, it has never been about democracy, human right, nor equality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    Because business world is about money, it has never been about democracy, human right, nor equality.
    Meaning if you were employed for this well-paying job as part of a management team, get posted to a country known for no human rights, you will ignore the plight of the workers because that's how the business world operates?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guo Xiang View Post
    Meaning if you were employed for this well-paying job as part of a management team, get posted to a country known for no human rights, you will ignore the plight of the workers because that's how the business world operates?
    No, I wouldn't want to be part of that. Unfortunately, it's how the world work. Did you see the documentary "THe Corporation"? Most corporations don't give a shit about the local people at all. When they operate in first world countries, they comply with all the environmental laws as they have too. On the other hand, when they operate in developing countries, they dump pollutants into lake and river to cut cost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    No, I wouldn't want to be part of that. Unfortunately, it's how the world work. Did you see the documentary "THe Corporation"? Most corporations don't give a shit about the local people at all. When they operate in first world countries, they comply with all the environmental laws as they have too. On the other hand, when they operate in developing countries, they dump pollutants into lake and river to cut cost.
    Do you have any idea how selfish you sound??? You honestly remind me of some of my ex friends....
    Respect other people's opinions and views. If we learn how to do that than all of these fights and arguments will not occur.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinie View Post
    Do you have any idea how selfish you sound??? You honestly remind me of some of my ex friends....
    Did you read what I wrote?
    I said I didn't want to be part of that. I wouldn't want to dump pollutants into lakes and rivers but I acknowledge that is what corporations have been doing in developing countries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    Did you read what I wrote?
    I said I didn't want to be part of that. I wouldn't want to dump pollutants into lakes and rivers but I acknowledge that is what corporations have been doing in developing countries.
    Meaning you acknowledge that it's not something good, yah? If that's the case, why do you instead accept it and even appear to normalise it? It's no different then seeing someone getting attacked in front of you yet you chose not to do anything 'cos "people attack people everyday it's just the way it is".

    You even agree with the cruelty in an earlier post and praised China for its unethical methods it is being accused of.

    China is being smarter than other countries regarding that aspect. Who give a shit about what they do to their own citizens, it's none of anyone else business. In fact, it's easier to deal with corrupted governments as you can get way better deal. Business should be about money, not democracy, human rights nor corruption.
    TC you are such a mix bag. At one hand you are highly moral, on the other side you are also highly immoral; you just don't get your hands dirty.

    You not only acknowledge, but you are in fact also supportive so Trinie is right in her assessment of you.
    Last edited by Guo Xiang; 01-19-10 at 03:20 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guo Xiang View Post
    Meaning you acknowledge that it's not something good, yah? If that's the case, why do you instead accept it and even appear to normalise it? It's no different then seeing someone getting attacked in front of you yet you chose not to do anything 'cos "people attack people everyday it's just the way it is".
    I am not a tree hugger like many environmental activists. I would never give up driving and other other things that make my life easier. As for the environment, I do the thing I can do such as recycling. I recycle as much as I can. I personally would never dump pollutants into lakes and rivers for personal benefit because that is cruel. However, it's not up to me to stop such action. I do not have the power to do so. It's up to the government to stop and punish people/corporations who do it.

    You even agree with the cruelty in an earlier post and praised China for its unethical methods it is being accused of.
    I praised China for having the courage to do business over there as many other countries don't. It's up to the local government to reject such action, not the corporations. Corporation is about money so they would do whatever to maximize the profit if the law is allowed.

    TC you are such a mix bag. At one hand you are highly moral, on the other side you are also highly immoral; you just don't get your hands dirty.

    You not only acknowledge, but you are in fact also supportive so Trinie is right in her assessment of you.
    I am just an Average Joe, I do not have the power to impact the world. Yes, you are right that I do not get my hand dirty. However, it's up to the law enforcement of the land to stop such action, not me. What can I do? I do not want to be an activist that might get shot for protesting. I think you acknowledge many many activists have die or been to jail for doing so.

    I support china for having the courage to do business in such dangerous environment. The situation is tough, you either have to deal with the devil or you don't do business at all. China's standard of doing business is different than the first world countries. China has been allowing corporations to dump pollutants into her lakes and rivers so perhap china thinks it's not all that bad for doing so. Again, it's up to the law enforcement of the land to stop such action. The local people should call their leaders and let them know that they against such action. They should make their voice heard on election day.

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    Senior Member Han Solo's Avatar
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    TC,

    I think that you are making the distinction between self and the collective too clearly.

    Collective is made up of individuals too, and whatever happen to collective will affect each individual.

    You can clearly say it is not your problem, but if you said that companies can do whatever they can, and it is up to the government to stop them - and the government does not or is not able to stop them --> Is there not then an obligation for the public to help to publicize/shame/force the companies to stop?

    Sometimes, a man need to rise above his petty self to serve the collective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bliss
    I think they're probably at the same level as or one level below Ah Qing, which is about the level of a 2nd or 3rd generation Quan Zhen disciple.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Han Solo View Post
    TC,

    I think that you are making the distinction between self and the collective too clearly.

    Collective is made up of individuals too, and whatever happen to collective will affect each individual.

    You can clearly say it is not your problem, but if you said that companies can do whatever they can, and it is up to the government to stop them - and the government does not or is not able to stop them --> Is there not then an obligation for the public to help to publicize/shame/force the companies to stop?

    Sometimes, a man need to rise above his petty self to serve the collective.

    Han Solo
    What you are saying is political correct. However, as for myself I just want to live a carefree life. I do not want to become a second Neda of Iran or some activists from china who do the right thing but ended up in prison. The government is the law enforcement of the land so obviously they have the power to stop such horrific acts from corporations. I do not want to go after the corporation as they can do a lot things that are unimaginable. Here is a practical phrase from the Chinese "Take a step back, there is a great plain and sky". It works very well in most situations.
    Last edited by Trien Chieu; 01-20-10 at 03:34 AM.

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    Senior Member Guo Xiang's Avatar
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    Have you heard another Chinese phrase? "If I do not go to Hell, who would?" and "You cannot get tiger cubs without entering the tiger's lair".

    Good things do not drop from the sky. You still have to fight/work for it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by athlee View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guo Xiang View Post
    Have you heard another Chinese phrase? "If I do not go to Hell, who would?" and "You cannot get tiger cubs without entering the tiger's lair".

    Good things do not drop from the sky. You still have to fight/work for it.
    I have nothing against selfless heroes. I admire all their selfless work, but I just can't be one.

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    No one is asking you to be a selfless messiah no. 2, what we are saying is that there are many ways to influence what companies or countries are doing.

    A good example is before Beijing Olympic of 2008, many spokespersons decided to quit in order to highlight the role of chinese companies in Sudan. Simple quiet demonstration that influence is the most subtle of power.

    We can all make a gesture too by not buying certain products, or make our voices heard over the internet. No company in the world is immune to public opinion,

    Han Solo
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    Quote Originally Posted by bliss
    I think they're probably at the same level as or one level below Ah Qing, which is about the level of a 2nd or 3rd generation Quan Zhen disciple.
    Troll Control

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    Quote Originally Posted by Han Solo View Post
    No one is asking you to be a selfless messiah no. 2, what we are saying is that there are many ways to influence what companies or countries are doing.

    A good example is before Beijing Olympic of 2008, many spokespersons decided to quit in order to highlight the role of chinese companies in Sudan. Simple quiet demonstration that influence is the most subtle of power.

    We can all make a gesture too by not buying certain products, or make our voices heard over the internet. No company in the world is immune to public opinion,

    Han Solo
    What did the chinese companies do the the people of Sudan?? If the chinese companies commit any crime or violate any law the people of Sudan always can report them to the law enforcement and bring the chinese companies to justice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    What did the chinese companies do the the people of Sudan?? If the chinese companies commit any crime or violate any law the people of Sudan always can report them to the law enforcement and bring the chinese companies to justice.
    Eh, did you know that some people of sudan were subject to genocide from their government?

    And that the Chinese companies deals with a genocidal government i.e. giving them money which may be used to buy weapons in a genocide?

    How is complaining to a government planning to kill you works?

    :shakes doll eyes:

    Han Solo
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    Quote Originally Posted by bliss
    I think they're probably at the same level as or one level below Ah Qing, which is about the level of a 2nd or 3rd generation Quan Zhen disciple.
    Troll Control

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    Quote Originally Posted by Han Solo View Post
    Eh, did you know that some people of sudan were subject to genocide from their government?

    And that the Chinese companies deals with a genocidal government i.e. giving them money which may be used to buy weapons in a genocide?

    How is complaining to a government planning to kill you works?

    :shakes doll eyes:

    Han Solo
    If that is the case then they should protest against the government of Sudan, not the chinese companies. The Sudanese government is the one that commiting genocide, not the chinese companies. If you manufacture knives and sell them to the consumers. Some criminals using the knives you made to commit crime, is it fair to hold you accountable?
    Last edited by Trien Chieu; 01-21-10 at 12:18 AM.

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