Shaolin 72 Divine Arts - Overrated?

[KJ]

But clearly MRF did not or can not use Gusu arts to full extend. I think I understand what you're saying and it makes sense. But I'm in doubt of how much MRB actually improved. Considering his normal progress with Gusu skills and internal cultivation he could've had in all those years, I don't think MRB benefitted too much from 72 Arts.

Where is this doubt coming from? What measurable evidence do you have that he did not benefit from it? You stated over and over in this thread that you don't think MRB or XYS benefited too much from the 72 arts, but is there and proof or logical deductions that this is true or are you getting this from your "gut feeling"?

[flamer]

Where is this doubt coming from? What measurable evidence do you have that he did not benefit from it? You stated over and over in this thread that you don't think MRB or XYS benefited too much from the 72 arts, but is there and proof or logical deductions that this is true or are you getting this from your "gut feeling"?

I guess its more from deduction and gut feeling. Deduction from the normal improvement of someone over all those years and what MRB/XYS achieved in those years. Compare it with someone like QQR, who trained in nothing but his own skills and just as time progresses, he continued to get better and better.

[jadebunny9]

My own deduction is that it WAS worth it, and which is why both XYS and MRB separately decided to spend a few decades of their lives there.

[flamer]

My own deduction is that it WAS worth it, and which is why both XYS and MRB separately decided to spend a few decades of their lives there.

Lol thats sort of what started this thread. I reckon MRB/XYS were wrong.

I would highly doubt XYS/MRB was less than 60-70% of XF pre-30 years. XYS did manage to demolish the best MAs of Central Plains. But after 30 years, they only managed to equal XF. I understand the point that if they did not learn 72 Arts, they may not even be able to equal XF but seeing how they did not progress that amazingly and how XF got there in less time, its obvious that there are better ways.

[S Beaver]

Then I guess its fair to say that Xiao Feng should not represent 72 Arts as he only knew one. Or do you mean his internal was based entirely on that one Art?

as with all things in life, it's quality over quantity.

but of course, with XF, he can probably make anything look good. thus, I assume perhaps the 72 arts training (internal) is probably inferior to the likes of 9 yin.

[flamer]

as with all things in life, it's quality over quantity.

but of course, with XF, he can probably make anything look good. thus, I assume perhaps the 72 arts training (internal) is probably inferior to the likes of 9 yin.

Yes but if XF managed the one Art to a high degree, we should see it more often. So its fair to think that his XL18Z is still stronger. If thats the case, XF should not be used as a measuring stick for the strength of 72 Arts because its not his main skill and the greatness we see of him does not stem from 72 Arts.

[PJ]

I would highly doubt XYS/MRB was less than 60-70% of XF pre-30 years.

It's not uncommon for fighters to double their power from age 30 to 60. In fact if your power doesn't at least double in that time period, something is wrong.

[S Beaver]

It's not uncommon for fighters to double their power from age 30 to 60. In fact if your power doesn't at least double in that time period, something is wrong.

proof? not unless they suddenly hit a martial arts goldmine.

[flamer]

It's not uncommon for fighters to double their power from age 30 to 60. In fact if your power doesn't at least double in that time period, something is wrong.

That just further devalues 72 Arts. Since most fighters wouldn't have access to 72 Arts yet be able to double their power. I personally doubt MRB/XYS did much more than doubling their power with 72 Arts, which they supposedly can do otherwise anyway.

If XYS was only 50% of XF 30 years ago, that would mean that the top MAs of Central Plains are much less than 10% apeice of XF, including then Xuan Ci and Wang Jiantong. Thats a bit weak isn't it?

[PJ]

That just further devalues 72 Arts. Since most fighters wouldn't have access to 72 Arts yet be able to double their power. I personally doubt MRB/XYS did much more than doubling their power with 72 Arts, which they supposedly can do otherwise anyway.

They would have doubled with or without 72 arts. The only difference is they now have more techniques under their belt. Not much difference at all. However, that doesn't devalue the 72 arts, since no one ever claimed it to be better than Great-level.

If XYS was only 50% of XF 30 years ago, that would mean that the top MAs of Central Plains are much less than 10% apeice of XF, including then Xuan Ci and Wang Jiantong. Thats a bit weak isn't it?

Present-day Xuanci is around 30% of Xiao Feng's level. He would be at most 15% of Xiao Feng's level 30 years ago (most likely weaker than that).

[PJ]

proof? not unless they suddenly hit a martial arts goldmine.

What do you mean? Golden Wheel Monk was over 50 years old, and he doubled his power in 16 years. Of course, he had a special circumstance which enabled him to improve so fast; and yet, the old Greats proved to match him more or less, so they would have improved significantly as well (say, 1.5x instead of 2x). However normally, someone younger at 30 years old should improve at a faster rate than someone at 50 years old. So if a 70 year old Yideng could improve about 1.5x in 16 years, I don't think it's a stretch to say that a 30 year old Xiao Yuanshan would double his power in 30 years.

[flamer]

They would have doubled with or without 72 arts. The only difference is they now have more techniques under their belt. Not much difference at all. However, that doesn't devalue the 72 arts, since no one ever claimed it to be better than Great-level.



Present-day Xuanci is around 30% of Xiao Feng's level. He would be at most 15% of Xiao Feng's level 30 years ago (most likely weaker than that).

I see. So the preciousness of 72 Arts is simply more variety of techniques? Seems like XYS/MRB got ripped off. They spent all those years at Shaolin, and just learned more techniques. While they could've refined their original skills, like Yideng and Yang Guo, and not be much, if any worse off. Don't forget the constant pain and suffering.

I thought 3 Xuans = XF. So each Xuan is probably 33.3333333% of XF but I've always been under the impression that Xuan Ci is slightly better than the other Xuan generation Monks.

[S Beaver]

What do you mean? Golden Wheel Monk was over 50 years old, and he doubled his power in 16 years. Of course, he had a special circumstance which enabled him to improve so fast; and yet, the old Greats proved to match him more or less, so they would have improved significantly as well (say, 1.5x instead of 2x). However normally, someone younger at 30 years old should improve at a faster rate than someone at 50 years old. So if a 70 year old Yideng could improve about 1.5x in 16 years, I don't think it's a stretch to say that a 30 year old Xiao Yuanshan would double his power in 30 years.

please PJ dear. you go on in your bubble about doubling powers, but many of us believe it is no more than a figure of speech

in any case, IF according to your logic, if 1 Deng only improved 1.5x while GWM improved 2x, and given that they start off in the same ground...that would mean 1Deng is only 75% of GWM's overall poweress by the end of ROCH.

let us not forget that this ratio is hardly more than the ratio of Guo Jing to Huang Yaoshi/Hong 7 Gong at the end of LOCH...which is estimated to be about a little more than 70% since Huang Yaoshi believed he might lose to Guo Jing if he only used 70% of his power. This Guo Jing at roughly 70% of Huang Yaoshi could stand no more than 300 stances (probably less, since HYS did not go full power until later).

also, if 1 Deng can actually have a 50% increase, that means in 16 years, he has done half of what did in about 50-60 years... you do the math.

[wuyuejin]

There's a big difference between 'believe to be' and 'be said to be'.

[PJ]

please PJ dear. you go on in your bubble about doubling powers, but many of us believe it is no more than a figure of speech

Well, Jin Yong mentioned it more than once in the novel, so I think he was definitely getting at something. Even if Goldie didn't quite double, it would've been close, e.g. 1.8x.

in any case, IF according to your logic, if 1 Deng only improved 1.5x while GWM improved 2x, and given that they start off in the same ground...that would mean 1Deng is only 75% of GWM's overall poweress by the end of ROCH.

Is that surprising? In HSDS it was mentioned that even if Xie Xun fought Cheng Kun sloppily, he would last 200 stances. It's highly debatable whether the normal Xie Xun is at 75% of Cheng Kun's level, never mind the sloppy Xie Xun.

Pre-16 years, Yang Guo's internal energy was inferior to Golden Wheel Monk's, and yet he was more than a match for him with HIS. Goldie only doubled his internal energy (i.e. power) but not his overall ability. The other Greats all have superior styles so they mostly make up for the difference in power.

let us not forget that this ratio is hardly more than the ratio of Guo Jing to Huang Yaoshi/Hong 7 Gong at the end of LOCH...which is estimated to be about a little more than 70% since Huang Yaoshi believed he might lose to Guo Jing if he only used 70% of his power. This Guo Jing at roughly 70% of Huang Yaoshi could stand no more than 300 stances (probably less, since HYS did not go full power until later).

also, if 1 Deng can actually have a 50% increase, that means in 16 years, he has done half of what did in about 50-60 years... you do the math.

Guo Jing was a novice, whereas Yideng is a pro.

[PJ]

I see. So the preciousness of 72 Arts is simply more variety of techniques? Seems like XYS/MRB got ripped off. They spent all those years at Shaolin, and just learned more techniques. While they could've refined their original skills, like Yideng and Yang Guo, and not be much, if any worse off. Don't forget the constant pain and suffering.

Murong Bo proclaimed himself that the 72 arts aren't that big of a deal and you only need to learn 1 or 2 to be effective. As for why they were so happy to learn them, it probably also has to do with the addictive effect of a martial arts: when you see a new cool martial art, sometimes it's hard to resist.

I thought 3 Xuans = XF. So each Xuan is probably 33.3333333% of XF but I've always been under the impression that Xuan Ci is slightly better than the other Xuan generation Monks.

Dunno the exact figure, but Xiao Feng and Jiumozhi could both annihilate a Xuan-generation monk in less than 3 stances, so the gap is quite the monstrous.

[flamer]

Murong Bo proclaimed himself that the 72 arts aren't that big of a deal and you only need to learn 1 or 2 to be effective. As for why they were so happy to learn them, it probably also has to do with the addictive effect of a martial arts: when you see a new cool martial art, sometimes it's hard to resist.



Dunno the exact figure, but Xiao Feng and Jiumozhi could both annihilate a Xuan-generation monk in less than 3 stances, so the gap is quite the monstrous.

I see, so the power of 72 Arts is indeed overrated. Its just the aura around the Arts that makes it so desirable.

Not sure about XF annihilating a Xuan Monk. At Ju Xian Manor, I thought XF fought one of the Xuan Monks for quite some time?

[S Beaver]

Well, Jin Yong mentioned it more than once in the novel, so I think he was definitely getting at something. Even if Goldie didn't quite double, it would've been close, e.g. 1.8x.

a figure of speech is still a figure of speech, no matter how many times you use it. I did not say that Jin Yong screwed up on his wording.
did you really think 1000 jin literally meant 1000 jin everytime Jin Yong used it? Not one jin more or less?
i still like to hear how you explain Yideng's "INCREASE" in improvement rate as he aged on.

Is that surprising? In HSDS it was mentioned that even if Xie Xun fought Cheng Kun sloppily, he would last 200 stances. It's highly debatable whether the normal Xie Xun is at 75% of Cheng Kun's level, never mind the sloppy Xie Xun.

200 stances is not a lot considering GJ lasted 300 stances if not more if Huang Yaoshi was to only use 70% of his strength. Do you honestly think that end of LOCH GJ can last against HYS the way 1 Deng did against GWM?

Pre-16 years, Yang Guo's internal energy was inferior to Golden Wheel Monk's, and yet he was more than a match for him with HIS. Goldie only doubled his internal energy (i.e. power) but not his overall ability. The other Greats all have superior styles so they mostly make up for the difference in power.

yes. key phrase: "him with HIS".
are you suggesting the other Greats vastly improved their techniques to compensate for the lesser gain in "power"?

Guo Jing was a novice, whereas Yideng is a pro.

even after GJ became "pro", there was no suggestion that he could beat someone with 30% more power than him. heck, in a one vs. one case, it was even unsure (or at least extremely difficult ie. over 1000 stances) for him to beat someone about the same level as him.

[CC]

Then I guess its fair to say that Xiao Feng should not represent 72 Arts as he only knew one. Or do you mean his internal was based entirely on that one Art?

Possible. We know that he knows Long Fist, Demon Taming Palm, XL28Z and Dragon Trapping Skill + Dog Beating Stick*. Of that lot, only Demon Taming Palm is known to have inner power generation.

*Dog beating Stick has some inner power formula but that seems to deal with channelling energy rather than cultivation.

[flamer]

Possible. We know that he knows Long Fist, Demon Taming Palm, XL28Z and Dragon Trapping Skill. Of that lot, only Demon Taming Palm is known to have inner power generation.

Amazing but I doubt that XF build his internal from one Shaolin Art alone. All the Xuan, Kong, Du Monks know more Arts and spent more years than XF but none of them has got internal that matches Xiao Feng's. It can be attributed to Xiao Feng's talent but I think thats slightly pushing it. I'm more keen to believe that XF trained in a seperate and solely internal orthodox Shaolin skill, which may or may not be 72 Arts.