Huang Rong vs. Zhao Min, who's smarter?

[Ken Cheng]

Yang Xiao, I'm sure hes a clever guy. But I don't think he demonstrated nearly enough wit as Zhao Min in HSDS. Zhao Min had the entire Ming Sect and wulin in chaos.

Sowing chaos isn't as intellectually demanding as establishing order. Even Gwok Fu could sow plenty of chaos.

To be fair, Yeung Siu wasn't great about establishing order either...

[flamer]

Sowing chaos isn't as intellectually demanding as establishing order. Even Gwok Fu could sow plenty of chaos.

To be fair, Yeung Siu wasn't great about establishing order either...

Yes but Zhao Min did so very subtly. She predicts the enemy's next move perfectly.

[yittz]

HR is much smarter than both her father and ZM. For one, she can read people really well and also ZM always had a big force of army backing her up. HR left her father and did her own thing and still survived with an idiot on her back.

I think HR is by far much smarter than ZM. I agree with Trieu on HR being a 10 and ZM being a 7.

I disagree HR is much smarter than her father.

Knowledge wise, she is only a fraction of her father.

You can argue she inherited her mum's memory ability and hence better at learning new things, but to have HYS's depth of knowledge, I doubt he is a significantly slower learner.

Cunning wise, HR repeatedly demonstrated she is the best of LOCH/ROCH, but remember when H7G first met HR, he picked her to be HYS's daughter on the basis of her cunning (planning/hidden agendas) and her martial arts.

Manipulating people, HR is tops, but that maybe because HYS wouldn't sink low enough to do many of these things and far too arrogant to pull them off. It's not like he's blind to other people's intentions, he does see through OYF's strategem, but proud enough to go I like to see you pull this off.

Overall picture, no one is smarter than HYS. That's fact.

[ChanceEncounter]

HR is much smarter than both her father and ZM. For one, she can read people really well and also ZM always had a big force of army backing her up. HR left her father and did her own thing and still survived with an idiot on her back.

I think HR is by far much smarter than ZM. I agree with Trieu on HR being a 10 and ZM being a 7.

Always had an army at her back?

The last 10 chapters of the book, she basically had no one, and was still able to predict the movements and schemes of pretty much everyone. She got her and ZWJ out of trouble on several occasions. She was able to outsmart Cheng Kun, who is no dumby himself. Who's the smartest guy that HR outsmarted? Yang Guo? Hard to say getting him to believe a lie is outsmarting him. OYF? The dude was already crazy...

As for surviving with an idiot on her back, ZWJ basically served as her deadweight. He's not as dumb as GJ, so the contrast isn't as big, but she still made him look like an idiot.

If HR is a 10, ZM is, at worst, a 9. Really, they should be on the same tier as far as intellect goes.

And yeah, it really can't be disputed that HYS > HR.

[Ken Cheng]

I disagree HR is much smarter than her father.

Knowledge wise, she is only a fraction of her father.

...

Overall picture, no one is smarter than HYS. That's fact.

But let's examine that fact a little more closely.

East Heretic Wong Yerk See is several decades older than his daughter, and always would be.

This means that he has a 20+ year experience edge on her, and would for his lifetime.

But if we level out the experience factor, which one actually has a greater aptitude for inventive thinking?

That's not so clear cut.

[tape]

If you play that card, maybe many other characters were just as smart but did not have the environment and luck to promote it. If you even it out, who's to say Genghis Khan wasn't smarter than both of them?

We can only go by their feats, and in ROCH we can see Huang Rong is still kind of going by the book of what her father taught her. She uses what she knows to thwart the enemy, while HYS constantly shows himself to be inventing new formations/martial arts for future situations. I'd say he's smarter just because he's more innovative, along with the fact that he has shown nothing inferior to Huang Rong. She has done nothing he hasn't shown to be able to do by contrast.

[flamer]

Lol this has turned out to be a HYS vs HR, Who is smarter thread.

[yittz]

But let's examine that fact a little more closely.

East Heretic Wong Yerk See is several decades older than his daughter, and always would be.

This means that he has a 20+ year experience edge on her, and would for his lifetime.

But if we level out the experience factor, which one actually has a greater aptitude for inventive thinking?

That's not so clear cut.

Well all we need to do is compare LOCH HYS to ROCH HR.

Given the platform HYS laid such a foundation for HR, she should have surpassed him. Like Tape said, HR was using the same tricks HYS taught her in LOCH and pawning everyone. To learn the difficult things that HYS invented is some achievement - just looking at the dishes she served up to H7G is enough to awe many modern chefs, but the difference is HYS INVENTED, HR followed.

In terms of things HR can do, HYS can't - I don't think HYS would have mind screw OYF like HR did. ZBT indicated that HYS was too proud for such a thing. HYS could have resorted to trickery (which ZBT said he can come up with), then HYS would have got the 9Ying from ZBT. If it was HR in HYS's seat, she would resort to simple things like starving, poisoning, robbing during ZBT's dunny runs etc.

[pandamao]

Well all we need to do is compare LOCH HYS to ROCH HR.

Given the platform HYS laid such a foundation for HR, she should have surpassed him. Like Tape said, HR was using the same tricks HYS taught her in LOCH and pawning everyone. To learn the difficult things that HYS invented is some achievement - just looking at the dishes she served up to H7G is enough to awe many modern chefs, but the difference is HYS INVENTED, HR followed.

In terms of things HR can do, HYS can't - I don't think HYS would have mind screw OYF like HR did. ZBT indicated that HYS was too proud for such a thing. HYS could have resorted to trickery (which ZBT said he can come up with), then HYS would have got the 9Ying from ZBT. If it was HR in HYS's seat, she would resort to simple things like starving, poisoning, robbing during ZBT's dunny runs etc.

The reason I don't see HYS smarter than HR because I never really saw much skills other than his martial power. I do see what you guys mean on him being smarter than HR though. However, HR is above him in terms of outwitting someone and remaining calm and collective at all times.

Remember how HYS got tricked when the monk told him his daughter died already and he went crazy. I vaguely remember a similar scenario with HR but forgot her reaction, was she as "crazy?"

----
As for ZM, she had her army in the beginning and then she had the ming cult towards the end (through ZMJ). I don't think HY had the same privilege, hence I find HR > ZM.

[ChanceEncounter]

The reason I don't see HYS smarter than HR because I never really saw much skills other than his martial power. I do see what you guys mean on him being smarter than HR though. However, HR is above him in terms of outwitting someone and remaining calm and collective at all times.

Not really a good argument, I'm afraid. For one, the narration explicitly states that HYS is smarter than his daughter. In order to overturn this, we need overwhelming evidence to the contrary. We can't just use the whole, "well, he just demonstrated martial prowess."

HYS doesn't need to outwit people and remain calm while doing it because the people that can stand up to him can be counted on 1 hand. Even so, he still demonstrates remarkable prowess at coming up with schemes and formations that literally come on the fly. Huang Rong did not.

As for ZM, she had her army in the beginning and then she had the ming cult towards the end (through ZMJ). I don't think HY had the same privilege, hence I find HR > ZM.

By this logic, Zhuge Liang wasn't really that smart because he had an army at his back. Everyone uses what they have at hand.

Zhao Min still demonstrated remarkable ingenuity when she was alone with ZWJ. Towards the end, she was reading literally every scheme and plot of basically every character in the book. She clearly demonstrates both ingenuity/natural smarts and political savvy.

[pannonian]

The reason I don't see HYS smarter than HR because I never really saw much skills other than his martial power. I do see what you guys mean on him being smarter than HR though. However, HR is above him in terms of outwitting someone and remaining calm and collective at all times.

Remember how HYS got tricked when the monk told him his daughter died already and he went crazy. I vaguely remember a similar scenario with HR but forgot her reaction, was she as "crazy?"

Cloud Manor, Qiu Qianzhang saying HYS was dead. HR had to be calmed down by Zhu Cong. In HYS's case, there was the additional evidence of Lingzhi Shangren accurately describing HR's attire, plus HYS's already existing worry about his daughter, who had set off to find GJ's collapsible boat, and who had already shown a willingness to die if GJ couldn't live (eg. her diving into Lake Tai after HYS moved to kill GJ).

[S Beaver]

Not really a good argument, I'm afraid. For one, the narration explicitly states that HYS is smarter than his daughter.

did it? says where?

By this logic, Zhuge Liang wasn't really that smart because he had an army at his back. Everyone uses what they have at hand.

Zhao Min still demonstrated remarkable ingenuity when she was alone with ZWJ. Towards the end, she was reading literally every scheme and plot of basically every character in the book. She clearly demonstrates both ingenuity/natural smarts and political savvy.

So did Huang Rong. Except Huang Rong shows more evidence of "pre calculating".

[jadebunny9]

I'm always under the impression that Huang Rong is smarter than Zhao Min, but it can be because the stark contrast between Huang Rong and Guo Jing makes her seem even smarter.

[ChanceEncounter]

did it? says where?

Several places in the novel, actually. Someone with the source in front of them will be able to locate the passages better.

So did Huang Rong. Except Huang Rong shows more evidence of "pre calculating".

Which isn't really an example of fluid intelligence, which is what is being discussed here.

[S Beaver]

how is predicting the enemy's next move not fluid intelligence?
let us not forget that Huang Rong also shows more creativity than Zhao Min.

Several places in the novel, actually. Someone with the source in front of them will be able to locate the passages better.

you may know the reference or context to specific passages in the novel perhaps?

By this logic, Zhuge Liang wasn't really that smart because he had an army at his back. Everyone uses what they have at hand.

That's quite a different case because Zhuge Liang's brightest moments shown when he was disadvantaged in terms of army strength. Zhao Min (before she switched sides) had usually been the one with the manpower advantage.

[pandamao]

how is predicting the enemy's next move not fluid intelligence?
let us not forget that Huang Rong also shows more creativity than Zhao Min.



you may know the reference or context to specific passages in the novel perhaps?



That's quite a different case because Zhuge Liang's brightest moments shown when he was disadvantaged in terms of army strength. Zhao Min (before she switched sides) had usually been the one with the manpower advantage.

I don't really need to say much, my friend here answered everything for me! Good thing I read everything before responding ...

[TiffTiff]

Wow, when I have time, I really need to watch LOCH all over again then. You guys are so good with JY's novel and wuxia itself! If I remember correctly, JY had said HR was his perfect/favorite character out of all of his novels. I guess that's kind of true b/c we get to see her intelligence from LOCH to ROCH, while ZM only appear like half of HSDS.

For HSY, I think he was smart too, but he was kind of stubborn, like to do his own way, that's why he's so cool . I don't think we should compare on the father and daughter's intelligent thing, b/c HSY had more experience in life than HR, for HR, she's younger so she's sharper in term of thinking of sneaky things to trick people. HR also has another advantage is that she was the Han people? While ZM was Mongolian, she might not fully understand the Han's culture and custom?

I guess I'm bias toward ZM, b/c HSDS was my first wuxia series that I remember, and the very first that I realize it was written by JY. And with the HSDS production in the way, I'm all excited for it, I wish JY would write some more about ZM & ZWJ after HSDS though, like if they have any kids or not...
I still like ZM more, she was mean and her outfits were prettier, do you guys remember Kitty Lai's Mongolian outfits from HSDS 1986, it was so prettyyyy

[wuyuejin]

I wish JY would write some more about ZM & ZWJ after HSDS though, like if they have any kids or not...

After getting married at the end of HSDS, WJ and ZM decided to move to the Ice Fire Islands to live a secluded life. On the way there their ship bumped into an iceberg. While the ship was sinking, ZWJ sealed ZM's acupoints, tied her up on the only 1-seat lifeboat left, and told her to live on. ZWJ then was drowned, bringing down with him to the underworld all the advanced martial arts he learnt. As for ZM, she drifted on the shore of a strange island known today as Greenland and lived alone there to mourn ZWJ's death until she died at the age of 72. After her death local villagers found in ZM's house a memoir which recorded almost everything she experienced during her life. They made various copies of the memoir which were then sold to passing American and Chinese merchants. Many years later, in the 20th century, Jin Yong, a Chinese man, read the memoir, he got touched and wrote a novel based on the young years of ZM and named it HSDS. Another copy ended up in the hands of an American director named James Cameron and he adapted a part of it into the famous movie known as Titanic!

[flamer]

After getting married at the end of HSDS, WJ and ZM decided to move to the Ice Fire Islands to live a secluded life. On the way there their ship bumped into an iceberg. While the ship was sinking, ZWJ sealed ZM's acupoints, tied her up on the only 1-seat lifeboat left, and told her to live on. ZWJ then was drowned, bringing down with him to the underworld all the advanced martial arts he learnt. As for ZM, she drifted on the shore of a strange island known today as Greenland and lived alone there to mourn ZWJ's death until she died at the age of 72. After her death local villagers found in ZM's house a memoir which recorded almost everything she experienced during her life. They made various copies of the memoir which were then sold to passing American and Chinese merchants. Many years later, in the 20th century, Jin Yong, a Chinese man, read the memoir, he got touched and wrote a novel based on the young years of ZM and named it HSDS. Another copy ended up in the hands of an American director named James Cameron and he adapted a part of it into the famous movie known as Titanic!

Lol good imagination there.

[ChanceEncounter]

how is predicting the enemy's next move not fluid intelligence?
let us not forget that Huang Rong also shows more creativity than Zhao Min.

Where does she show "more creativity" than Zhao Min? That's fairly subjective, no?

As for predicting the enemy's move, Zhao Min did that pretty well, even against pretty intelligent enemies.

And you said: Except Huang Rong shows more evidence of "pre calculating".

"Pre-calculating" is not fluid intelligence. What you describe as 'predicting the enemy's next move' is not "pre-calculating."

you may know the reference or context to specific passages in the novel perhaps?

As I said, I remember reading it, but I don't know the exact passage. It was one of the three dozen shout outs towards HYS's entire family's intelligence. Another funny tidbit is that Huang Shang is apparently smarter than all of them.

Instead of simply reiterating/reinforcing what I already said (I don't remember the exact passage), you could try proving it wrong. If you find a passage where it claims that HR is smarter than HYS, then it's proof by contradiction.

That's quite a different case because Zhuge Liang's brightest moments shown when he was disadvantaged in terms of army strength. Zhao Min (before she switched sides) had usually been the one with the manpower advantage.

Not at all. And to think of this is a logical fallacy.

Having greater resources does not make her less intelligent, because intelligence has nothing to do with the resources at hand. Zhuge Liang was intelligent because he was able to make his forces operate in ways that seemed stronger than they were. Zhao Min was able to use her forces in ways that were different from merely throwing more people to solve the problem. Intelligence here is using the resources you have to best accomplish the ends you seek. Certainly what Zhao Min did was not 'easy' in any sense, and thus required very smart execution.

And as mentioned, even in the later chapters of the book, without any resources at all, she still demonstrates exceptional intelligence.

Furthermore, I'm having trouble seeing what your argument is at all. I never said that Zhao Min is smarter than HR (such a comparison would be impossible with the evidence presented), just that if HR is smarter, she isn't smarter by a very large margin. Most likely, the difference in intelligence between Zhao Min and Huang Rong would be like the difference in intelligence between Yang Guo and Huang Rong; Huang Rong would be some margin smarter (though not all that much), and the two of them are smarter than everyone else.

I don't really need to say much, my friend here answered everything for me! Good thing I read everything before responding ...

May want to give it another go, as the answer didn't really provide anything definitive.