Huang Rong vs. Zhao Min, who's smarter?

[wuyuejin]

I'm wondering what the required qualities of 'being smart' are? Can Grigori Perelman be considered smart? He's definitely unable to plan complex schemes like HR could nor he's able to figure out other people's plots like ZM did, some even think that he's a nerdy idiot, but the fact is that when it comes to IQ he omgwtfpwns all characters in JY's novels. I disagree with the statements that ZM is the smartest character in HSDS. That title should belong to ZWJ. Granted he was toyed around like a kid by the hot chicks in HSDS, however this wimpy dude also showed that his brainpower was at a very high level when he mastered all Hu Qingniu's knowlegde on medicine in just 3 or so years. He could understand complicated martial arts in very short periods of time as well.

[flamer]

I think calling ZWJ the "smartest" character is pushing it. There will be lots of people who can memorise and recollect medicine information if Hu Qingniu is willing to share them.

Overall, ZWJ is one of the not-so-smart characters of JY.

[yittz]

The reason I don't see HYS smarter than HR because I never really saw much skills other than his martial power. I do see what you guys mean on him being smarter than HR though. However, HR is above him in terms of outwitting someone and remaining calm and collective at all times.

Remember how HYS got tricked when the monk told him his daughter died already and he went crazy. I vaguely remember a similar scenario with HR but forgot her reaction, was she as "crazy?"

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As for ZM, she had her army in the beginning and then she had the ming cult towards the end (through ZMJ). I don't think HY had the same privilege, hence I find HR > ZM.

I think Chance answered most of your points. You don't see much other than martial arts, but remember every skill, knowledge, trick HR display is taught by her father. Those dishes that bought GJ a teacher, were invented by HYS. Those formations that HR used to injure GLFW, were invented by HYS. Ying Gu who to YD and ZBT was a smart one, cried in dismay when she realise her maths is never going to be sufficient to make it through peach island. The pills HYS made was like the wonder drug throughout LOCH/ROCH, only short of healing internal energy palms delt by Greats.

In terms of outwitting, HYS never had to resort to that and much to proud for that given his standings. Like he said, even if people can make it through his peach island, it doesn't mean he can be hurt.

[pandamao]

I think Chance answered most of your points. You don't see much other than martial arts, but remember every skill, knowledge, trick HR display is taught by her father. Those dishes that bought GJ a teacher, were invented by HYS. Those formations that HR used to injure GLFW, were invented by HYS. Ying Gu who to YD and ZBT was a smart one, cried in dismay when she realise her maths is never going to be sufficient to make it through peach island. The pills HYS made was like the wonder drug throughout LOCH/ROCH, only short of healing internal energy palms delt by Greats.

In terms of outwitting, HYS never had to resort to that and much to proud for that given his standings. Like he said, even if people can make it through his peach island, it doesn't mean he can be hurt.

Okay, you guys convinced me in HYS is smarter than HR since he's the teacher .... but to say HR has no merits and is only a daughter of a great teacher is by far something I do not agree with.

She accumulated her own talent and even though had a great teacher, she was able to accomplish a lot on her own. There were numerous scenes where HR tricked people and I don't see much "coniving tricks" from HYS. Yes, he's had great martial skills but not much on reading people. He invented a lot of things but I felt because he didn't have the martial skills handicap, HR was able to excel in another area he was not.

Also, one factor where I put HYS below HR (originally) was his treatment to his disciples. How intelligent is it to injure all to prevent further loss? He seemed to lack the sympathetic portion in his brain to realize his disciples were different from the traitors.

Attempt #2.

[tape]

Intelligence has nothing to do with sympathy. He acted rashly and cruelly, but that doesn't mean say anything about his intelligence. Huang Rong was in fact the very same way before she met Guo Jing.

And it's been stated a few times that he never showed his "reading skills" or "conniving strategies" because he never had to. He didn't have to trick people to get the truth out of them or to get out of danger, he could just beat it out of them physically. That doesn't show lack of intelligence either; he just happens to have other methods to do it that was probably easier, more effective, and more towards his personality.

[S Beaver]

Where does she show "more creativity" than Zhao Min? That's fairly subjective, no?

As for predicting the enemy's move, Zhao Min did that pretty well, even against pretty intelligent enemies.

yes, it could be subjective. but i have yet to see someone make a ladder out of sheep legs and such ideas.

And you said: Except Huang Rong shows more evidence of "pre calculating".

"Pre-calculating" is not fluid intelligence. What you describe as 'predicting the enemy's next move' is not "pre-calculating."

alright, so i didn't major in english and thought they meant the same thing. still, it doens't deny Huang Rong's ability to adapt, whether it is to predict the enemy's moves or to adapt to situations.

As I said, I remember reading it, but I don't know the exact passage. It was one of the three dozen shout outs towards HYS's entire family's intelligence. Another funny tidbit is that Huang Shang is apparently smarter than all of them.

Instead of simply reiterating/reinforcing what I already said (I don't remember the exact passage), you could try proving it wrong. If you find a passage where it claims that HR is smarter than HYS, then it's proof by contradiction.

different. it was not I who claimed that HR was more intelligent than HYS but you who claimed the opposite. Thus, it is your burden to prove.

Having greater resources does not make her less intelligent, because intelligence has nothing to do with the resources at hand. Zhuge Liang was intelligent because he was able to make his forces operate in ways that seemed stronger than they were. Zhao Min was able to use her forces in ways that were different from merely throwing more people to solve the problem. Intelligence here is using the resources you have to best accomplish the ends you seek. Certainly what Zhao Min did was not 'easy' in any sense, and thus required very smart execution.

It is not "easy", but certianly not as impressive as if she had turned a "disadvantaged" situation into her "favor" as Zhuge Liang had demonstrated.

And as mentioned, even in the later chapters of the book, without any resources at all, she still demonstrates exceptional intelligence.

One at a time, my dear. If the claims were examples for when she was in power, then we shall refute for the same period in time. If the claim comes from specific examples for when she wasn't in power, then other arguments will be used. We use argument-specific receptors

Furthermore, I'm having trouble seeing what your argument is at all. I never said that Zhao Min is smarter than HR (such a comparison would be impossible with the evidence presented), just that if HR is smarter, she isn't smarter by a very large margin. Most likely, the difference in intelligence between Zhao Min and Huang Rong would be like the difference in intelligence between Yang Guo and Huang Rong; Huang Rong would be some margin smarter (though not all that much), and the two of them are smarter than everyone else.

my argument lies purely for the sake of arguing and poking holes into other people's arguments and "points". Isn't that what you are doing?
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[pannonian]

Intelligence has nothing to do with sympathy. He acted rashly and cruelly, but that doesn't mean say anything about his intelligence. Huang Rong was in fact the very same way before she met Guo Jing.

And it's been stated a few times that he never showed his "reading skills" or "conniving strategies" because he never had to. He didn't have to trick people to get the truth out of them or to get out of danger, he could just beat it out of them physically. That doesn't show lack of intelligence either; he just happens to have other methods to do it that was probably easier, more effective, and more towards his personality.

Huang Yaoshi preferred to meet his opponents head-on, duelling with them in their specialist area, and still thrashing the hell out of them, thus proving he was a genius unmatched under heaven. Hence, to combat the Quanzhen Big Dipper formation, he devised his own formation, a modified version of which was used in the attempt to rescue Guo Xiang at the end of ROCH. When Li Mochou subdued the youngsters with music midway through ROCH, HYS in turn subdued her with music. When Cheng Yaojia was hesitant about a marriage with Lu Guanying, HYS threatened to seek out her father for a duel, in whatever area he desired, whether it were martial arts, mathematics, art, or anything else.

[pandamao]

Intelligence has nothing to do with sympathy. He acted rashly and cruelly, but that doesn't mean say anything about his intelligence. Huang Rong was in fact the very same way before she met Guo Jing.

And it's been stated a few times that he never showed his "reading skills" or "conniving strategies" because he never had to. He didn't have to trick people to get the truth out of them or to get out of danger, he could just beat it out of them physically. That doesn't show lack of intelligence either; he just happens to have other methods to do it that was probably easier, more effective, and more towards his personality.

I mean, he showed so much of just beating the crap out of people yet everyone is convinced he had the "reading skills" and the "conniving skills." Just because he didn't have to use it, doesn't mean he really does possess those skills.

HYS didn't have the handicap that HR had therefore I never saw much of those abilities. As of right now, I'm convinced HR possess those skills and not convince with HYS having those skills but shows no evidence of it.

[pandamao]

Huang Yaoshi preferred to meet his opponents head-on, duelling with them in their specialist area, and still thrashing the hell out of them, thus proving he was a genius unmatched under heaven. Hence, to combat the Quanzhen Big Dipper formation, he devised his own formation, a modified version of which was used in the attempt to rescue Guo Xiang at the end of ROCH. When Li Mochou subdued the youngsters with music midway through ROCH, HYS in turn subdued her with music. When Cheng Yaojia was hesitant about a marriage with Lu Guanying, HYS threatened to seek out her father for a duel, in whatever area he desired, whether it were martial arts, mathematics, art, or anything else.

Hypothetical to say ... but HYS didn't have his martial skills, will he be able to withstand all those bullies? HR did it.

[pannonian]

I mean, he showed so much of just beating the crap out of people yet everyone is convinced he had the "reading skills" and the "conniving skills." Just because he didn't have to use it, doesn't mean he really does possess those skills.

HYS didn't have the handicap that HR had therefore I never saw much of those abilities. As of right now, I'm convinced HR possess those skills and not convince with HYS having those skills but shows no evidence of it.

The divine mathematician Yinggu and the scholar were put to shame by Huang Rong's knowledge of mathematics and literature, but she was taught the solutions by her father, who solved these problems because he was bored one day. Huang Yaoshi composed the verse about the little imps to tease his disciples, while Huang Rong altered but a few words to similarly tease Yideng's disciples.

[S Beaver]

The divine mathematician Yinggu and the scholar were put to shame by Huang Rong's knowledge of mathematics and literature, but she was taught the solutions by her father, who solved these problems because he was bored one day. Huang Yaoshi composed the verse about the little imps to tease his disciples, while Huang Rong altered but a few words to similarly tease Yideng's disciples.

No one denys that Huang Yaoshi is an intelligent man indeed, but it doesn't necessarily mean that he is more intelligent than his daughter.

The same way that one can say that HYS never displayed any cases of "trickery/plotting" or getting himself out of tight spots because he didn't need to or didn't want to, can we not say the same for Huang Rong? Since she was already spoon fed the resources and knowledge, does she need to actively display that she improve upon her father's achievements?

[tape]

Well Haung Rong was defending Xiang Yang for 20 years or so, and she couldn't come up with a formation to break the Mongolians. Huang Yaoshi technically didn't either, but he came up with the closest/best method against them. HR no doubt was concerned and should have thought of it, but she didn't. This doesn't prove anything by itself, but imo it's a point for the father and a point against the daughter.

[wuyuejin]

I think calling ZWJ the "smartest" character is pushing it. There will be lots of people who can memorise and recollect medicine information if Hu Qingniu is willing to share them.

Overall, ZWJ is one of the not-so-smart characters of JY.

I don't agree with you. ZWJ was not mischievous like ZM or fiendish like ZZR but JY wrote in chapter 12 of the book that he was highly intelligent and if having been taught by HQN he would've been on par with Hua Tuo and Bian Que, 2 most famous Chinese physicians, before reaching the age of 20!

[flamer]

I don't agree with you. ZWJ was not mischievous like ZM or fiendish like ZZR but JY wrote in chapter 12 of the book that he was highly intelligent and if having been taught by HQN he would've been on par with Hua Tuo and Bian Que, 2 most famous Chinese physicians, before reaching the age of 20!

But I'm sure many people in China would be able to repeat that (especially medicine related ones). If Hu Qingniu is willing to share. Hua Tuo and Bian Que are great because they formulated medicinal theories and cures themselves and applied them effectively. ZWJ only equals them in medicine skill but doesn't mean he is as good as them overall in the field of medicine. Effectively ZWJ only ripped the information from Hu Qingniu, who is comparable to Hua Tuo/Bian Que and applied it.

But not many people would be able to do a Huang Rong, Zhao Min, Yang Guo, HYS etc.

[wuyuejin]

But why did JY write that WJ was highly intelligent/smart for several times? And except for tricking other people which is something WJ was not good at due to his innately good-natured disposition, what else HR, YG, ZM,... did that ZWJ couldnt do? He memorized all the complex martial arts theories that Xie Xun had taught him when he was still very young. And afterwards he was able to master almost any advanced fighting technique in a matter of minutes or hours at most.

[flamer]

But most of ZWJ's displayed talents involve memory and it stops there. Remembering and recollecting medicine books, LEARNING 9 Yang to save his life (literally). 9 Yang and QKDNY allows him to learn and spot techniques, nothing to do with his intelligence.

Disregarding those memory work, ZWJ really did not display much wisdom, tactic at all. He is not as able as Yang Xiao in coordinating battles, not as able as Zhao Min in estimating oppositions and manipulating them, constantly lets his emotions get the better of him and last but not least, he allowed Zhu Yuanzhang's plot to work. The list goes on.

[Ken Cheng]

But most of ZWJ's displayed talents involve memory and it stops there. Remembering and recollecting medicine books, LEARNING 9 Yang to save his life (literally). 9 Yang and QKDNY allows him to learn and spot techniques, nothing to do with his intelligence.

Disregarding those memory work, ZWJ really did not display much wisdom, tactic at all. He is not as able as Yang Xiao in coordinating battles, not as able as Zhao Min in estimating oppositions and manipulating them, constantly lets his emotions get the better of him and last but not least, he allowed Zhu Yuanzhang's plot to work. The list goes on.

Well, let's establish what exactly the definition of "smarter" is here. According to you, feats of memory and understanding complex systems of medical and martial arts knowledge don't count, but arts of deception and trickery do. If that's the definition of "smarter" you go by, the deck is already stacked against Cheung Mo Gei.

But skill in deceiving others is only one aspect of intelligence, just as the ability to memorize facts and figures is. If we're judging overall intelligence, however, we have to look at the bigger picture.

[flamer]

But ZWJ operates almost entirely on memory. Which is much easier to come by than real actual wit, intelligence and judgment. They do count but they are too common compared to ppl like HYS, HR, ZM, even Yang Xiao.

[flamer]

If ZWJ is considered, then I should expose an overlooked character.

Yideng!

Extremely proficient in martial arts, even more so than ZWJ some would say. Extremely knowledgeable including medicine, much broader knowledge than ZWJ I would say for sure. Generally more intelligent than ZWJ too. Very "jiang-hu smart".

[Ken Cheng]

But ZWJ operates almost entirely on memory. Which is much easier to come by than real actual wit, intelligence and judgment.

If you want to consider judgment, consider this: how many times did Cheung Mo Gei avert disaster in wulin and accomplish what no one else could (i.e. reunify the Ming Cult and establish friendly relations between the Ming Cult and mainstream wulin) by allaying competing egos and making all the right moves to ameilorate rather than aggravate long-standing conflicts? Good judgment involves more than figuring out whom to trick and how to trick them.

If the question were, "Who's best in the arts of deception," then Cheung Mo Gei has no place in the discussion.

But the argument surrounds many different aspects of intelligence, of which the ability to deceive or see through deception is only one.