Huang Rong vs. Zhao Min, who's smarter?

[flamer]

I am not doubting ZWJ's ability in memory and understanding of martial arts. But I just don't think that encompasses enough aspects of intelligence to qualify him.

I quite like this definition.

"Intelligence (also called intellect) is an umbrella term used to describe a property of the mind that encompasses many related abilities, such as the capacities to reason, to plan, to solve problems, to think abstractly, to comprehend ideas, to use language, and to learn."

ZWJ covers maybe 2 of those aspects. There are numerous characters who covers more and to a greater degree. So I don't understand why ZWJ was singled out. Characters like Zhao Min and Huang Rong just smashes ZWJ in most aspects of "intelligence". Check out Yideng.

[Ken Cheng]

I am not doubting ZWJ's ability in memory and understanding of martial arts. But I just don't think that encompasses enough aspects of intelligence to qualify him.

I quite like this definition.

"Intelligence (also called intellect) is an umbrella term used to describe a property of the mind that encompasses many related abilities, such as the capacities to reason, to plan, to solve problems, to think abstractly, to comprehend ideas, to use language, and to learn."

ZWJ covers maybe 2 of those aspects. There are numerous characters who covers more and to a greater degree. So I don't understand why ZWJ was singled out. Characters like Zhao Min and Huang Rong just smashes ZWJ in most aspects of "intelligence". Check out Yideng.

No one's arguing that Cheung Mo Gei is the equal of Wong "The Genius" Yerk See here, or Wong's infamously wiley daughter. But while Cheung Mo Gei doesn't qualify for Super Genius status, one cannot fairly call him unintelligent. Other than in the arts of deception, I would say his intelligence is at least equal to that of Yeung Gor.

[flamer]

No one's arguing that Cheung Mo Gei is the equal of Wong "The Genius" Yerk See here, or Wong's infamously wiley daughter. But while Cheung Mo Gei doesn't qualify for Super Genius status, one cannot fairly call him unintelligent. Other than in the arts of deception, I would say his intelligence is at least equal to that of Yeung Gor.

I agree with everything except the YG bit.

Yang Guo still possess many more aspects of intelligence than ZWJ. I bet YG will be able to memorise the medicine manuals as well as having a good crack at 9 Yang.

EDIT: My point all this while is that ZWJ shouldn't be considered as "one of the smartest characters". Thats all.

[yittz]

I am not doubting ZWJ's ability in memory and understanding of martial arts. But I just don't think that encompasses enough aspects of intelligence to qualify him.

I quite like this definition.

"Intelligence (also called intellect) is an umbrella term used to describe a property of the mind that encompasses many related abilities, such as the capacities to reason, to plan, to solve problems, to think abstractly, to comprehend ideas, to use language, and to learn."

ZWJ covers maybe 2 of those aspects. There are numerous characters who covers more and to a greater degree. So I don't understand why ZWJ was singled out. Characters like Zhao Min and Huang Rong just smashes ZWJ in most aspects of "intelligence". Check out Yideng.

ZWJ is intelligent, not just because Jin Yong have explicitly said so.

Learning kungfu/medicine isn't relying purely on memory, it's requires a good understanding of the whole subject which incorporates reasoning and logic, problem solving, thinking abstractly, to comprehend ideas and apply them. To impress Hu Qing Nu like he did, and become the HYS equivalent in HSDS, requires more than just memory. Ditto with him learning and appreciation of 9 Yang, QKDNY, Taiji (the third remembered 30% in one go, ZWJ pretty much got it) and Persian tablet arts.

No cookie for telling me that's he is not street smart and got tricked by ZZR/ZM throughout the novel. But you have to remember he lived in isolation for most of his life - he had minimal social contact with people who weren't his family. Apart from HR (who was likely to be taught by HYS), everyone else who was street smart, came from the streets. The two girls he was facing were highly capable schemers. ZM lead the capture of all those 6 sects, ZWJ did manage to keep his Ming cult alive. ZZR's scheme was pretty impressive even from a readers point of view.

In terms of tricking people, it's not his nature to do so. HR probably would have managed to trick the Ming peak fighters to self obliterate and get revenge, ZWJ openly managed to prevent a total, and definite bloodshed to occur. No one else could have performed as well as ZWJ in that instance. If that wasn't displaying intelligence (planning, psychology, manipulation) under pressure I don't know what is. He faced several different battles with several different personalities.

Purely from a genetics point of view, his parents were smart people too (father regarded highly by Z3F, mother was YSS).


Neither ZM nor HR would have had the intelligence to learn things like ZWJ did. The way ZWJ roar through those martial arts, only few character come near (SPT and maybe YG). YD is ok, but competely overshadowed by HYS.


EDIT: didn't read your edit, agree not one of the smartest charcters, but definitely one of the smarter ones (I would rank below YG)

[flamer]

As I said before, there is no lacking of people who are able to understand the medicine of Hu Qingniu. Its just that HQN does not share them. I don't really agree that medicine involves reasoning and logic, problem solving and thinking abstractly. At least not medicine of that age and not to a large extent. You just suck in the theory and the knowledge and you apply it to people. Simple as tat.

Even you admitted that ZWJ is constantly being tricked in HSDS. Instead of thinking excuses for him, maybe thats just another point for ZWJ not being one of the smartest JY characters. For example, do we see Huang Rong, HYS, Zhao Min get tricked nearly as much as ZWJ does? Instead of saying they are street smart etc etc, its clearly just a case of better intelligence.

ZWJ's pacifist attitude is a plus and I give him that. But that doesn't change the fact that he is not one of the smartest characters in JY universe lol.

He may have gone through 9 Yang etc but his knowledge of martial arts is far inferior to any other Great. Especially Z3F of his own time. His knowledge of classics, calligraphy is also very limited.

P.S I would rank him under YG too...

[wuyuejin]

I think being intelligent/smart means having the ability to learn fast. Thus, ZWJ is one of the smartest characters. Judging from the amounts of time he needed to master what he really wanted to learn, I place him on par with YG, DY, ZM and 1/2 level below the likes of HYS, HR, Wu Ya Zi,... Being intelligence shouldnt be mixed up with being cunning/street smart. There're plenty of examples in real life that are similar to ZWJ: academically intelligent but socially credulous. Grigori Perelman is one of such. If you read about his life you'll find that this man's probably the smartest person alive (he solved the Poincare conjecture, an extremely difficult math problem that had remained unsolved for 100 years) but he's also very 'naive' and eccentric in normal people's point of view. Is he stupider than people like Mr. Bush Jr.? No way.

[yittz]

As I said before, there is no lacking of people who are able to understand the medicine of Hu Qingniu. Its just that HQN does not share them. I don't really agree that medicine involves reasoning and logic, problem solving and thinking abstractly. At least not medicine of that age and not to a large extent. You just suck in the theory and the knowledge and you apply it to people. Simple as tat.

Even you admitted that ZWJ is constantly being tricked in HSDS. Instead of thinking excuses for him, maybe thats just another point for ZWJ not being one of the smartest JY characters. For example, do we see Huang Rong, HYS, Zhao Min get tricked nearly as much as ZWJ does? Instead of saying they are street smart etc etc, its clearly just a case of better intelligence.

ZWJ's pacifist attitude is a plus and I give him that. But that doesn't change the fact that he is not one of the smartest characters in JY universe lol.

He may have gone through 9 Yang etc but his knowledge of martial arts is far inferior to any other Great. Especially Z3F of his own time. His knowledge of classics, calligraphy is also very limited.

P.S I would rank him under YG too...

First point: Disagree - who were you talking about? He is willing to treat all Ming Cults, doesn't mean he is unwilling to pass on the info. Several times HQN made reference to ZWJ's intelligence:
不禁吃了一惊，暗道：“一个聪明大胆，一个体魄壮健，这截心掌的掌伤，倒给他治好了。” (after ZWJ treated Chang after 6 days)
胡青牛见他悟性奇高，... 不禁叹道：“以你的聪明才智，又得遇我这个百世难逢的明师，不到二十岁，该当便能和华佗、扁鹊比肩，只是… …唉，可惜，可惜。” (his comprehension is extremely high....with his intelligence and talent...)
JY also made several comments on the difficulty of chinese medicine, and how ZWJ memorising the text isn't sufficient with so many variables in play. Learning many requires other qualities other than memory, I don't see how ancient chinese medicine is any different. Don't see how you can argue that it doesn't involve reasoning and logic.

Why can't I use lack of street smart as an excuse? Not being exposed to it doesn't mean he would be crap at learning it. If we regard intelligence as innate then ZWJ is certainly excusable. If you argue intelligence is learned, then anyone can be considered lacking intelligence if they grew up lacking social contact.

Pacifist does excuse him from resorting to trickery, just like arrogance excuse HYS. He did manipulate HQN to teach him medicine.

Of course his martial arts knowledge isn't comparable to a Great, especially ZWJ. Comparing a 25yo to an 100+ yo Z3F is lmao. Your interpretation of intelligence is knowledge accumulated, as oppose to absorb knowledge?

He actually did get taught gentleman arts by his father on the island. How is that relevant? ZM/ZZR probably don't know much in that field either, and YG definitely don't.

You ignored my reference to Martial arts learning - so that's all memory too?
And my reference to his performance at Ming Peak.

[flamer]

He is willing to cure but not willing to teach or pass on the knowledge. I thought I made that quite clear. Medicine is essentially learn the theory, judge the illness, then apply the cure. I don't think ZWJ formulated some sort of new medicinal theory or treatment method etc. He simply repeated what HQN laid out for him. Although he should get praise for being able to understand all those theories but as I suggested earlier, there are lots of people who can do that.

I don't think potential should be considered. We are judging the characters on their intelligence from the novel are we not? Most definitely if someone grew up lacking social contact and thus leading to being manipulated left right and center, then said person is unintelligent. No matter what his excuse is. Thats the qualitative description of that person.

Theres a difference between excused from trickery and able to use trickery. ZWJ would fall under the lattter. He is literally unable to use trickery because of his attitude (and intelligence may I suggest). Unlike HYS who can use it if he wants to.

Of course, as I suggested earlier, we are not comparing potential. As of end of HSDS, ZWJ has a lot less knowledge than any other Great. It will bring too many variables if you bring in potential and "if"s.

I made a comment regarding his understanding of martial arts earlier. "LEARNING 9 Yang to save his life (literally)" But I still commend him on that ability. But others Greats would be able to achieve that too.

[TiffTiff]

Ok, ZWJ is smart in absorbing the informations given to him in a minute. He was able to unite the Ming Cult and become friends w/ other wulin sects, command the people in Shaolin temple to fight against the Monglians; that required great leadership skills.

When it comes to girls, he's dumb. Maybe it was his indecisive personality, doesn't want anyone to be unhappy?

[flamer]

Ok, ZWJ is smart in absorbing the informations given to him in a minute. He was able to unite the Ming Cult and become friends w/ other wulin sects, command the people in Shaolin temple to fight against the Monglians; that required great leadership skills.

When it comes to girls, he's dumb. Maybe it was his indecisive personality, doesn't want anyone to be unhappy?

I suspect 9 Yang helped him with Taiji. But he is still to be praised.

Reunite Ming Cult and become friends with other sects, that was mainly because of his pacifist attitude and martial arts. I seriously don't see much intelligence in that. Alright he controlled his urges of revenge and focused on mediating both sides. Not too much thinking involved right? Is there mention of a soliloquy or such reflecting ZWJ's amazing thought process on how to re-unite Ming Sect and befriend other sects? He just had that simple idea in mind and acted to uphold that idea and prevent conflict.

He himself knew that he was not as good as Yang Xiao or Zhao Min in co-ordinating attacks on Shaolin. He was still rejecting that role when Mongols started attacking the mountain. He was forced that position.

There are also instances in HSDS that said ZWJ is not good with words and Yang Xiao and others had to speak for ZWJ.

[wuyuejin]

You're mistaking leadership skills and knowledgeability for intelligence. Intelligence is innate and training can only improve it by at most 3 points on an IQ scale of 1 to 200 or so points. Whatever you said, regardless of how many times ZWJ was tricked, there's an undeniable fact that he is one of the fastest students in JY's novels rivalling Yang Guo, Duan Yu, Linghu Chong,... YG, ZM,... are only more cunning than ZWJ but not more intelligent. If intelligence is judged by cunning, eloquence, manipulating and planning abilities as you've argued in this thread, I think I should begin to name Adolf Hitler/Mao Zedong/Josef Stalin the greatest thinkers/brains of all time. Oh yeah, and why have I never realized that 90% of the greatest scientists like A. Einstein, G. Galilei, N. Tesla,... were just pathetic nerdy dumbasses as after all they either got controlled by slick politicians whose IQs were only several points above average or died in poverty?

[S Beaver]

Neither ZM nor HR would have had the intelligence to learn things like ZWJ did. The way ZWJ roar through those martial arts, only few character come near (SPT and maybe YG). YD is ok, but competely overshadowed by HYS.

Not necessarily. Huang Rong only spent two hours to learn an entire set of "xiao yao you" from Hong 7 Gong. While "xiao yao you" is not necessarily on the level of 18 Dragon Palms, it certainly isn't something fit for any old joe. Along with Guo Jing, she was able to decipher the healing portion of 9 yin (and we all know how much GJ can actually contribute...).

[pandamao]

I agree with everything except the YG bit.

Yang Guo still possess many more aspects of intelligence than ZWJ. I bet YG will be able to memorise the medicine manuals as well as having a good crack at 9 Yang.

EDIT: My point all this while is that ZWJ shouldn't be considered as "one of the smartest characters". Thats all.

I agree. ZWJ is simply above average and it doesn't really say much either. He's just a charismatic character.

[flamer]

You're mistaking leadership skills and knowledgeability for intelligence. Intelligence is innate and training can only improve it by at most 3 points on an IQ scale of 1 to 200 or so points. Whatever you said, regardless of how many times ZWJ was tricked, there's an undeniable fact that he is one of the fastest students in JY's novels rivalling Yang Guo, Duan Yu, Linghu Chong,... YG, ZM,... are only more cunning than ZWJ but not more intelligent. If intelligence is judged by cunning, eloquence, manipulating and planning abilities as you've argued in this thread, I think I should begin to name Adolf Hitler/Mao Zedong/Josef Stalin the greatest thinkers/brains of all time. Oh yeah, and why have I never realized that 90% of the greatest scientists like A. Einstein, G. Galilei, N. Tesla,... were just pathetic nerdy dumbasses as after all they either got controlled by slick politicians whose IQs were only several points above average or died in poverty?

So you are basing intelligence on the ability to learn fast. And it stops there? Hitler etc are eloquent and manipulation but then they fall out on the part requiring learning, knowledge etc, in which guys like Einstein smashes them. So theres no argument who is "smarter".

My argument is that "intelligence" is not just based on ability to learn fast. Other factors like knowledge, eloquence, planning etc comes in and ZWJ just does not fit into enough of those.

[yittz]

He is willing to cure but not willing to teach or pass on the knowledge. I thought I made that quite clear. Medicine is essentially learn the theory, judge the illness, then apply the cure. I don't think ZWJ formulated some sort of new medicinal theory or treatment method etc. He simply repeated what HQN laid out for him. Although he should get praise for being able to understand all those theories but as I suggested earlier, there are lots of people who can do that.

I don't think potential should be considered. We are judging the characters on their intelligence from the novel are we not? Most definitely if someone grew up lacking social contact and thus leading to being manipulated left right and center, then said person is unintelligent. No matter what his excuse is. Thats the qualitative description of that person.

Theres a difference between excused from trickery and able to use trickery. ZWJ would fall under the lattter. He is literally unable to use trickery because of his attitude (and intelligence may I suggest). Unlike HYS who can use it if he wants to.

Of course, as I suggested earlier, we are not comparing potential. As of end of HSDS, ZWJ has a lot less knowledge than any other Great. It will bring too many variables if you bring in potential and "if"s.

I made a comment regarding his understanding of martial arts earlier. "LEARNING 9 Yang to save his life (literally)" But I still commend him on that ability. But others Greats would be able to achieve that too.

Where did it say he wasn't willing to teach? He was happy to teach ZWJ. He was only unwilling to cure because of the incident with Hua Shan's sect leader.

At least you are acknowledging that HSDS medicine was more than just memory.

Despite JY and HQN commented on ZWJ's intelligence, you require him to invent a new medicinal technique? HR mostly applied what HYS taught her, but likewise to ZWJ, her intelligence was shown by the how much and in what time she can learnt it. Who else could have done what ZWJ did? HQN described it as exceptional learning capabilities.

Why shouldn't potential be considered? Beng and chun isn't the same as inexperienced. And how is knowledge of martial arts relevant to this? Comparing a 100 yo to a 20 yo, and saying the 20 yo isn't intelligent because he knows less, and saying lack of social contact is irelevant shows we have different intepretation of intelligence. Most psychologists do not incorporate traits of knowledge, personality and creativity in their definitions of intelligence. I agree with that. Intelligence is much more nature than nuture, in either case (bar not being nutured in social contact), ZWJ has a good backing. Both his parents and all three of his social contacts are highly capable people.

In terms of trickery, remember all fell into the traps of ZM. We are talking about several lao jiang hu. The likes of Yang Xiao, Zhang 4 of WuDang were being manipulated by ZM. ZSF himself fell ill to ZM's plan. ZWJ managed to get out of ZM's trap, and counter several of her schemes. ZWJ did use tact throughout the novel too, not just go around pawning people with 9 Yang. He manipulated HQN into teaching him, he exposed Hua Shan sect leader. You still did not address his performance on Ming Peak, that was certainly no less to what YG did at the heroes meeting.

With 9 Yang, he wasn't pressured to learn while he was down there. His mentality was, he's going to be down there for a long time, it didn't matter if he learnt it today or tomorrow or never as it served as a distractor while's down there. JY described his progress as Qi Shu, even though he was mucking about with apes. Any great can do it is your assumption. Fact is ZWJ mowed through it with little martial arts training other than XX making him memorise quotes. A great doing it in less time doesn't make it more impressive given their background.

I am not comparing ZWJ to YG and say he is better, but he is certainly more than just above average.

[yittz]

So you are basing intelligence on the ability to learn fast. And it stops there? Hitler etc are eloquent and manipulation but then they fall out on the part requiring learning, knowledge etc, in which guys like Einstein smashes them. So theres no argument who is "smarter".

My argument is that "intelligence" is not just based on ability to learn fast. Other factors like knowledge, eloquence, planning etc comes in and ZWJ just does not fit into enough of those.

Your definition of intelligence is skewed. I mostly agree with what wuyuejin's version of intelligence. Eloquence was when ZWJ convinced 6 sects seeking bloodshed to go home empty handed. Planning was when ZWJ lead Ming cult to overthrow Yuan.

[flamer]

It didn't say but seeing how Hu Qingniu finally took ZWJ as a student, he did not teach his medicine easily.

The comments on his intelligence are just his ability to think, and understand the medicine theories. Which I said I praise ZWJ for.

Potential absolutely should not be considered. So if I say, compare a child who is very smart next to me and Stephen Hawking. How many would say the child is more intelligent? If I asked the child about Quantum theory and let him explain it to me, can he do it?

Lol if you know as many dumb kids from smart parents as I do, you wouldn't make that call.

In terms of trickery and manipulations. I wasn't really thinking of incidents like Luliu Manor or Wudang. I was thinking more like ZZR's manipulations. It will be much harder if ZZR was doing it on say Yang Xiao or HYS.

Performance on Brightness Peak. As I said before. He just had the simple ideal the mend all parties. He acted according to that. Good you mentioned Xian Yutong, that was indeed some brainpower from ZWJ.

He remembered and found out 9 Yang will save his life. Of course he was pressured to learn it. Shi Potian learned amazing martial arts with no prior training. You Tanzhi learned Yijinjing with half-learnt crappy You family arts. Duan Yu learned 6 Divine Swords when hes got no prior training and no interest in martial arts. Guys like SPT and YTZ aren't really smart characters either. I'm not saying ZWJ is in the league of YTZ in terms of intelligence but just suggesting that not-so-smart characters can also learn great Arts.

I not saying ZWJ is just above average. Just saying he is NOT "one of the smartest characters in JY".

[flamer]

Your definition of intelligence is skewed. I mostly agree with what wuyuejin's version of intelligence. Eloquence was when ZWJ convinced 6 sects seeking bloodshed to go home empty handed. Planning was when ZWJ lead Ming cult to overthrow Yuan.

But wuyuejin's definition is pretty much just "ability to learn fast".

And you find an example of eloquence, which is under my definition.

[S Beaver]

He remembered and found out 9 Yang will save his life. Of course he was pressured to learn it. Shi Potian learned amazing martial arts with no prior training. You Tanzhi learned Yijinjing with half-learnt crappy You family arts. Duan Yu learned 6 Divine Swords when hes got no prior training and no interest in martial arts. Guys like SPT and YTZ aren't really smart characters either. I'm not saying ZWJ is in the league of YTZ in terms of intelligence but just suggesting that not-so-smart characters can also learn great Arts.

Actually, Shi Potian and Duan Yu were both described as being highly intelligent folks, the same way Zhang Wuji was also described as being intelligent. But this isn't the argument in the first place. Anyone who claims ZWJ is not intelligent is like saying Guo Jing is smarter than Huang Rong. The real question is: is he one of the most intelligent characters out there. This, I do not believe so.

Regarding 9 yang: I believe ZSF had taught him some, as that is how he came to recognize it as 9 yang.

[flamer]

Actually, Shi Potian and Duan Yu were both described as being highly intelligent folks, the same way Zhang Wuji was also described as being intelligent. But this isn't the argument in the first place. Anyone who claims ZWJ is not intelligent is like saying Guo Jing is smarter than Huang Rong. The real question is: is he one of the most intelligent characters out there. This, I do not believe so.

Regarding 9 yang: I believe ZSF had taught him some, as that is how he came to recognize it as 9 yang.

Haha thank you. And for the fifth time or so...

I not saying ZWJ is just above average. Just saying he is NOT "one of the smartest characters in JY".

I don't see whats the argument unless someone wishes to contradict that.