lebron just lost his triple double LOL, the league just announced it
they gave 1 rebound to ben wallace, which should be ben's
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Kobe pretty much gets just as many touches. Besides, if you want to bring up the "forward" point, Kobe is a guard, he should touch the ball and get more assists than LeBron.
LeBron averages more points, rebounds, and assists, and his team plays at a slower pace (fewer possessions). I don't really see why this isn't a valid comparison. They are both wing players in the NBA. They frequently guard each other. They are frequently assigned the same targets to guard. When they play other elite teams, like Boston, they are both D'd up by Paul Pierce, et cetera.
They are just as comparable (if not more so) than any other two players in the NBA.
u also have to understand they play in different system too. lebron is the go to guy, all the plays cleveland runs revolve around lebron, whereas in the triangle, they always go inside first (unless its the last few mins of the 4th quarter or unless they call up an isolation play for kobe, which do happen often but not every single play.
and also, usually it is kobe drawing double team, then he wll dump it to a) odom at the ft line, where he'll draw gasol's defender then pass it to gasol for a dunk or b) he'll dump it to gasol and gasol will find an open odom/bynum/powell coming to a basket for a dunk. in reality, its easy to see who deserve the assist but it doesnt happen this way in the nba, only in the nhl
and i also gotta mention, even though theres more possession for the lakers, gasol and bynum (now odom) will be taking at least 15 shots each.
lebron also average 1 more minute than kobe, but i wont count that against him
the one thing about lebron's game is that he rarely post up and has no post move (though i wont surprised if he develop it later in his career). cause for a person of his size, he should be able to man handle his defender by posting up
Last edited by LuNaR; 02-11-09 at 03:31 AM.
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LeBron is the bigger and more powerful version of Scottie Pippen. Like Pippen, Prince James is a point forward who handles the ball a lot, grabs many rebounds and has an average outside shot. Plus, both guys have NO go-to move, so they are not dependable at the end of the game.
Unlike LeBron, Kobe has all the offensive moves: a deadly shooter and great dribbling moves that can beat any defenders. Even though Kobe is a capable passer, he doesn't like to pass, so his assist number will never be as high as LeBron.
A month ago, Jeff Van Gundy said and I agree, LeBron is the best player in the first 3 quarter of the game, but Kobe is the best player in the 4th quarter at least this and next year.
the only thing LBJ do is drive, and he's the best at that, no SF or any guard can stop his drive, only some PF and most center can stop him. Most of the time team rotate and alter his drive with 2 players. So there's the best asset.
Other wise he chuck up shots with inconsistency. A team will not win game if they put 2 man on him, no way no how, it leaves his team mate open too much. But with good team defense and good rotation they'll get him everytime. Check out what the celtic did to him last year, and the recent laker games.
It's not easy though, not every team play good defense (atleast not good enough to stop him), and not every team has the personel to stop him.
That still doesn't account for their discrepancy in stats. Firstly, Kobe has NEVER in his career averaged comparable rebounds or assists as LeBron. Not once. He also played a few seasons without the triangle and he got the basketball on every possession.
Furthermore, the Lakers average MORE possessions than Cleveland. The Lakers push the ball up and down the floor much more than Cleveland does. This leads to more points, more offensive numbers, and higher scoring games. The Lakers are the highest scoring team in the league. Their opponents average about a hundred points a game as well. All of this helps Kobe, whose touch percentages are still only a shade below LeBron's.
The conclusion? As far as number of touches over the course of the game, Kobe gets just as many if not more than LeBron (on account of having more possessions per game). He still doesn't have LeBron's offensive numbers, and has never had them throughout his career.
http://www.82games.com/0809/QTR4S11.HTM
LeBron averages the most points in the 4th quarter of anyone.
In terms of "clutch" stats, defined as the final two minutes of a close game, LeBron beats out Kobe here too...
http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM
Kobe, until recently, actually had a SUB .450 shooting percentage in "clutch" stats. And if you look at the fourth quarter stats, Kobe only shoots .455 from the field. This actually means Kobe is likely to shoot his team into a hole, and then need to hit a game winning shot. In fact, this has been the case for Kobe his entire career. His career +/- is actually worse in the fourth quarter. He's the most likely player in the league to turn a 2 or 3 point lead at the end of the third into a 1 or 2 point deficit at the end of the fourth, and need a game winning bucket at the buzzer.
The problem? Everyone sees Kobe hit a few game winning buckets and think that means he's "clutch." The real stats show that Kobe is only clutch insofar as the big moment doesn't scare him. As far as his production when it counts goes, he's not more "clutch" than other players.
If you want to extend this to Roland Ratings and PER stats, LeBron beats out Kobe by a solid margin in both:
http://www.82games.com/0809/ROLRTG8.HTM
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/holli...r%2fstatistics
This means LeBron is the more EFFICIENT player. He gets more points on fewer shots. He gets more rebounds, more assists, more blocks. He impacts his team on a far greater level, and he does all of this with FEWER POSSESSIONS to work with than Kobe's offensive system.
I don't see how this is debatable. A few years ago, sure. But now, as far as who's the MVP, and who's the single best player in the league, it's LeBron. I'm not even sure Kobe's a better shooting guard than Dwyane Wade.
Both times, the Laker's best player on the floor was PAU GASOL, not Kobe Bryant, and you can check the stats and +/- for that. Pau Gasol offers a new dimension that the Lakers didn't have.
The Cavs without LeBron is statistically one of the worst teams in the NBA. So LeBron singlehandedly transforms the Cavs from one of the worst to one of the NBA's best.
As far as offensive variety. Kobe has more offensive variety. But that doesn't make him a better player. Steve Nash is a better playmaker and a better shooter, but that doesn't make Steve Nash better than Kobe offensively. LeBron can take anyone in the league to the rack, and he scores at a more EFFICIENT rate than Kobe does.
If you coached basketball, you would know that anytime a player can get to the basket, you want them to do so. Take the higher percentage shot when it's there.
and of course, stats always tells the whole story.
pau gasol has a 56 FG%, 9+ RB, and a 50% 3PT! Forget kobe or lebron, pau is obviously the BEST of them all
really, stats are hardly the most accurate to rank players, unless you're playing fantasy basketball.
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Pau Gasol needs someone to create for him, as do most big men, which is why their shooting percentages are higher. Kobe and LeBron both create for themselves. They are both volume shooters; the difference is that LeBron is more efficient.
This isn't using marginal stats. These are every possible stat out there. Do you know what the efficiency stats do? They plug all of the relevant stats into a weighted algorithm to determine the impact of the player and how well they convert minutes on the floor into points.
Do you know what the +/- stat does? It literally contrasts the points the TEAM scores when the player is on the court and when they're not. There's no more direct means of comparison than that. The +/- stat is infinitely more valuable than any "eyeball test."
So tell me, how are we supposed to compare players? Because the scouting report will tell you that LeBron is just as dangerous as Kobe. Paul Pierce has admitted that LeBron is the toughest guy he's ever had to guard, and he's guarded someone named Kobe for much of Kobe's career.
What basis do you want to make a comparison, and we'll go with it. I guarantee you, on almost any legitimate comparison, LeBron owns Kobe.
But hey, David Lee shoots over 60% from the floor, I guess there's still hope for the straw men.
Are you kidding?
Name someone else in the HISTORY of NBA basketball that had a 23.9/12.2/6.3 season. There isn't anyone.
Magic had some of the best stats in the history of the game. If you want to look at his efficiency ratings, they reflect his position. The hasn't been a more versatile player in the history of the NBA.
Kobe Bryant is the poor man's Michael Jordan, and he hasn't done anything as the go to player.
His last 4 seasons as the primary option:
- Finals Loss (with fellow all-star Pau Gasol)
- First Round Loss
- Missed Playoffs
- First Round Loss
Impressive job. Let's compare this to LeBron's performance:
- Second Round Loss (to eventual champions)
- Finals Loss
- Second Round Loss
- Missed Playoffs
And, by every measure, LeBron's supporting cast is WORSE than Kobe's. And he's younger. And he's done more for his team than Kobe has. And he's still getting better.
So sure, we don't have to go by stats, we just have figure out how Kobe is better when:
- It doesn't show up in any legitimate stat line
- It doesn't show up in +/- impact when he's on the court
- It doesn't show up in playoff results
Yes, but since Pau Gasol shoots over 50%, that somehow defeats this entire argument!
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Stats are not comprehensive and no matter how you look at it. the stats recorded are very marginal. every "possible" stat does not reflect every possible aspect of the game.
take for example, lebron has always beaten kobe's stats in terms of rebounds, steals and blocks for the past 3 seasons, yet lebron has never gotten named in 1st or 2nd defensive team, while kobe has been named to the 1st defensive team all three years. please give a stat to explain this? or is it the nba head coaches do not understand basketball or they are biased by kobe's good looks?
Last edited by Ren Ying Ying; 02-13-09 at 03:50 PM.
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cleveland plays in the east... the last few years, the east sucks... in fact, the east still sucks in terms of overall competition
and u are overrating the +/-. u have to figure that kobe, lebron or whoever u are looking at with the +/- does not always play with the best players on their team on the floor. like if kobe comes in with the laker's bench against like the celtics starting line up (which happens a lot), u cant expect him to stay on the + side. same with lebron.
u are starting to sound like hollinger, the espn analyst that uses his PER and stats to determine everything lol, it just doesnt happen that way
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Ben Wallace has been named to the all-NBA defensive team, and he hasn't been a good defender for a while now. You fail to understand that these are JOURNALISTS who name these teams, not NBA coaches. The old adage is true, "young players will often miss out on an All-Star game they deserve. But they make up for it by getting in an All-Star game they probably don't [when they are older]."
Kobe is a good on-ball defender. However, that affects overall efficiency (and gasp, shows up in the stats!). Stats have become way more efficient in the past few years. If Kobe locks down his opponent, and his team goes on a run because of it, it will show up in player efficiency and +/- stats. Kobe is the superior on ball defender, but LeBron is the better off-ball defender. And the point is to play good TEAM defense. The Lakers are very average defensively.
Again, isn't the point of basketball to outscore the other team? If a player does more to accomplishing this goal, isn't he the better player? I fail to see your logic in disputing this argument.
Kobe, as the primary man (and with a supporting cast better than LeBron's) has failed to accomplish as much as LeBron. If he's the better player, shouldn't he have done more? If he's the better player, shouldn't SOME barometer prove that he's better?
If LeBron played in LA, and Kobe played in Cleveland, would we even have this conversation? I doubt it. If anything, it's media bias at work. There is no measure in which Kobe is the superior basketball player to LeBron.
This is hilarious.
So, I can't use +/-.
I can't use stats.
I can't use floor impact.
I can't use player efficiency.
I'm supposed to just believe Kobe is better than LeBron, despite LeBron owning Kobe in all the typical categories of determining a better player, just because you say so?
Kobe plays against the Celtics a lot? Kobe plays against the Celtics twice. LeBron, in the East, plays against the Celtics 3 or 4 times a year. LeBron's supporting cast is worse than Kobe. By most GM accounts, the Lakers have one of the deepest teams in the country. 2 starting quality point guard, great frontcourt (with a top 10 center in Bynum, an all star forward in Gasol, and a very, very good player in Odom), and great bench.
Furthermore, the Roland Ratings WEIGHT +/- (it's not a raw +/-) for the +/- of your teammates and the +/- of your opponents. Literally, what it does is establish how much of an impact you would make over the average player at your position against average NBA competition. It's literally an adjusted average, just like Kenpom for CBB (which is a great predictor eerily often).
And the West is stronger than the East?
Combined East Record: 403-387
Combined West Record: 387-403
Top to bottom, the east is stronger than the west this season. The Cavs are 17-3 against the west. They're only 23-8 against the east.
At least bring some facts to support your opinion, please.
The last time I checked, the picking of all-defensive teams are done by head coaches. I don't claim to be an expert on NBA affairs, but please show me where it says that ALL-DEFENSIVE players are picked by journalists. (Even for reporters & journalists, I'm sure they're not all entirely basketball ignorant or unaware of the fact that stats exist.) All Star-Starters are chosen by fans while the All Star Benches are chosen by coaches. In either case, Lebron long surpassed the "below the radar" stage and I wouldn't call Kobe past his prime, yet.
Until then, save your "stats" and "+/-" for the fantasy leagues.
Whether you like it or not, defense is just as important as offense. The point of any game is to "win". For goal-based games, you have two choices: score or prevent the opponent from scoring. And as you've said, it is TEAM Defense. Thus, one member breaking down will cost the team. How will that show up on an individual player's stats? Does stats record how many times a player loses his man?
It's not so much about who is better. It's more about the ridiculous method you use to measure them.Originally Posted by ChanceEncounter
And that proves...? The Celtics lost 7 of their 11 losses to the west.Originally Posted by ChanceEncounter
Last edited by Ren Ying Ying; 02-14-09 at 02:16 AM.
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it is hilarious, that u are basing EVERYTHING off stats. i didnt say u cant use it, i just said u overrated it, which u did. stats is one thing, but its not everything.
look, the cavs play the east more, ofc they going to lose more to the east. on top of that, how can u even say east is stronger than west. u almost lost all credibility saying that. when milwaukee (not even a .500 team) is in the playoffs, u know how bad east is. when i say west is stronger than east, i mean the contending teams... west has more sh!t team than east which is why ur combined record has east above 20.
i mean if PER means so much, would u say Marreese Speights (if u dont know who he is, he plays for the 76ers, and played 48 games already, current PER ranked 20) is better than paul pierce or ray allen, both of whom are not even in the top 50 in PER rankings......
Last edited by LuNaR; 02-14-09 at 01:56 AM.
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No. S**t. Sherlock.
Seriously, if this is your argument, I'm done wasting my time.
If you lose your man and he ends up scoring. Guess what happens to your +/-?
If you fail to rotate on help defense, and the penetrator gets an easy dunk. Guess what happens. No seriously. Guess.
Do you not understand what +/- even is? Taken at raw value, its literally the amount of points your TEAM goes up or down in relation to the amount the other TEAM scores.
So if you enter the game and your team is down 4, and then when you leave, your team is up 8. Guess what your +/- is? +12. Capische? Easy, right? What does the Roland Rating do? It adjusts your +/- with the amount of points that you, as a player, directly influence, and then weights it so to propose the hypothetical situation: if you were surrounded by average players (statistical mean), and you were playing against average players, how would you do.
There is no better measure for how good of a player you are. Because if your team consistently scores more with you on the floor than without you, you win games, right? Duh.
So, let's put it this way, LeBron has a greater overall (factoring offense AND defense) impact by being on the floor than Kobe. Shouldn't this indicate that he's the better player? What else should we look at? Who looks better in a suit? Who's girlfriend/wife is hotter? Who's coach has the better haircut? Seriously, what do you want to use to compare?
You want to go by an eyeball test?
Sure, let's see, according to the scouting reports:
Kobe is better at:
- shooting (jumpshots, 3 pointers, free thows)
- ballhandling
- on ball defense
LeBron is better at:
- penetrating/driving
- rebounding/post presence
- assists/playmaking
- off ball/help defense (getting in passing lanes, rotation, blocked shots)
Overall, LeBron is the more efficient player (more points on fewer shots per game), and he has just as much that he's better at, skill wise, than Kobe as vice versa. So how does this help your case at all?
You keep bringing up irrelevant basis to argue, you provide nothing in return, and you stone wall a valid argument by trying to find trivial exceptions that point out the exception rather than the rule, if that.
I'm sorry if I'm attacking your favorite player, but facts are facts.
Uhm... Marreese Speights plays 15 minutes a game. He's not a primary player. A lot of players have good efficiency or stats in limited outtings. We're talking about players with similar levels of floor exposure, in similar roles, and asked to do similar things (carry your team to victory).
And LOL, I'm not talking about number of losses.
Cleveland vs. East: 23-8 .742 winning percentage
Cleveland vs West: 17-3 .850 winning percentage
Are we clear yet? Do you need the Cliff Notes? Cleveland does significantly better against the West than the East. The East as a WHOLE does better than the West.
Guess what? Kobe isn't playing the top 8 West teams every game. You have to take the conference strength top to bottom. Top to bottom, the East is stronger than the West, and that's shown in their combined record, which I already cited.
If you want another barometer, look at the past few NBA champions?
2008: Celtics (east)
2007: Spurs (west)
2006: Heat (east)
2005: Spurs (west)
2004: Pistons (east)
Doesn't look like the east is far behind here either. So yeah, the West is front-loaded, but the East, top-to-bottom is stronger. Outside of the top 8-10 teams (of which 3 or 4 are fairly mediocre), the bottom of the west is AWFUL. These things are basically free wins.
In the East, there are three great teams (Cleveland, Boston, Orlando) and a number of good teams. But even the cellar dwellers are not doormats. They can win a game against you.*
*See Indiana vs Lakers, or Indiana vs Cavs for exhibit A.
Again, I ask, and stop ignoring please:
WHAT BAROMETER DO YOU WANT TO JUDGE KOBE VS LEBRON?
I already pointed out to you that by pretty much every overall barometer, LeBron beats out Kobe. And all you do is bury your head in the sand and say, "I DON'T BELIEVE! LALALALALALA!!"
As I said, bring something to the table, please.
This is like shooting fish in a barrel. Can any of you offer a substantial argument to why Kobe is better than LeBron? All you guys seem to do is say, "well the case for LeBron may not hold true if this, this, and this..."
Anyone?
Bueller?
This level of denial is absurd.
The East has an OVERALL positive record against the west, as evidenced by their OVERALL record: 403-387.
If you knew anything about standings, you'd know that if a east team plays another east team, one has to win, and one has to lose, so their record is leveled at 1-1.
Thus, the only way for the east, as a conference, to have a winning record is if they win more games against the WEST than they lose. They've done that. They've done that all season long (they've had an overall positive record since the second day of the season).
The East, as a whole, top to bottom, is stronger than the the West. What more proof do you need? Thus trying to use "conference strength" as a knock against LeBron is an asinine decision. The West is not significantly stronger than the East. If anything, it's slanted the other way.
In reality, it's unlikely to have made much of a difference in their outlook. LeBron has outperformed Kobe because LeBron is a better player.
So, basically you're saying we can't assume that a player that is better at the following:
- More points
- More rebounds
- More assists
- Higher shooting percentage
- Higher efficiency rating
- Higher +/-
- Higher adjusted +/-
- Better stats in the 4th quarter
- Better stats in "clutch" time
- Having a similar record with an inferior supporting cast
Is better?
Ludicrious. Ridiculous. Absurd. Stupid.
Yeah, damn everything. Why bother keeping score at all anyway? Kobe is clearly the best player in the league!
Arguments like yours need to get thrown into the particle accelerator and never seen again.
Last edited by ChanceEncounter; 02-14-09 at 02:30 AM.
Don't bother arguing unless you can explain with your stats why kobe can make 1st defensive team in the past 3 years (voted by head COACHES..unless you can show me otherwise) and lebron gets nada despite putting up better rebound, block, and steal stats. Or what is it now...coaches are biased against "off-ball" defenders or lebron's young age? This isn't about whether kobe or lebron is better, but rather your absurd reliance on stats. just think of kobe and lebron as two players who just happened to be used in the example. don't get sidetracked and don't diverge from the argument.
until you can statistically explain why the coaches would choose kobe, your stat values still mean jack.
I'm sorry if you don't realize that the game is played by people, not the computer.
Last edited by Ren Ying Ying; 02-14-09 at 03:00 AM.
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ok go explain to me how zach randolph (per ranking 32, mins played 36) is better than pierce of allen and a hell lot of other players in the PER ranking.
if zach randolph's efficiency is SO good, why the hell does the clippers keep losing huh? PER is ONE guideline, not everything. can u get this in ur head?
i know who won the past 10 nba championships, i dont need u to tell me. east won a fair amount, so what, there had been at most 3 competitive team in the east, while everyone in the west is competitive. i never said east didnt have any good teams, i just said it was an inferior conference to west, and since u like ur analysts so much, ask ANY of them and they'll say west is better. that is just straight out fact, i dont know what ur trying to argue.
heres why i think kobe is better. he has a go to move he can use at a daily basis to get you points when u need it the most. he can shoot 3's, free throws, jumpers, post, and defend better than lebron.
lebron is better getting to the rim, and getting rebounds. but he hasnt hit his prime and i understand that.
balancing all that out, i give the edge to kobe. fair enough of an argument?
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