It starts with Janitor Monk, then goes to Wong Chung Yeung, Lam Chiu Ying, and Greats

[wuyuejin]

Do you hate Sweeper Monk too? Just out of interest .

I don't hate him as the monk was a Shaolin martial arts user. Unlike LCY's techniques which were based on almost no real experience in fighting, the techniques that Nameless Monk used were of a school that up to that point in the novel already had a long history of around 700 years and had been tested in various real battles. Further, we don't know anything about the young years of Nameless Monk. I guess he might have been a ringleader of a group of brigands who possessed a hyper talent for martial arts. After having annihilated many elite fighters sent by the Song government to catch him, Nameless Monk might have gotten fed up with bloodsheds and he went into Shaolin temple at the age of 50 to live the rest of his life in seclusion and peace.

[flamer]

I don't hate him as the monk was a Shaolin martial arts user. Unlike LCY's techniques which were based on almost no real experience in fighting, the techniques that Nameless Monk used were of a school that up to that point in the novel already had a long history of around 700 years and had been tested in various real battles. Further, we don't know anything about the young years of Nameless Monk. I guess he might have been a ringleader of a group of brigands who possessed a hyper talent for martial arts. After having annihilated many elite fighters sent by the Song government to catch him, Nameless Monk might have gotten fed up with bloodsheds and he went into Shaolin temple at the age of 50 to live the rest of his life in seclusion and peace.

I see. But we don't know what Sweeper Monk used. He knew quite a bit about Xiaoyao Sect's XWXG *hint hint*.

But SM said he was at Shaolin for what.. 43 years. Or maybe his internal is so awesome that he does not age. Or maybe he trains in Bahuang Hiuhe Weiwo Duzun Gong *more hints*.

[wuyuejin]

^ The monk might have entered Shaolin at the age of around 50 and stayed there for 43 years until the end of TLBB when he was around 100. I dont quite remember the details of TLBB but whatever techniques he used they must have been tested in real fights. The idea of a person sitting in a cave pondering over martial arts principles then one day walking out of the cave to kill Gods is just ridiculous to me.

[flamer]

^ The monk might have entered Shaolin at the age of around 50 and stayed there for 43 years until the end of TLBB when he was around 100. I dont quite remember the details of TLBB but whatever techniques he used they must have been tested in real fights. The idea of a person sitting in a cave pondering over martial arts principles then one day walking out of the cave to kill Gods is just ridiculous to me.

The mysterious part of Sweeper Monk is that the actual skill used by him was not mentioned at all. Nor his internal base or other martial arts history. So we wouldn't know what he used at all. I rather wish to think SM was around 70... don't want him to die too early... or can he die?

Zhang Sanfeng was a person who sat in a cave and pondered over soft vs hard and came out as a different man, a REAL man. His skills weren't tested until they were... tested, and they were good I assume.

I don't think being isolated and creating an amazing skill is that much of a ridiculous thing to be honest. Talent .

[PJ]

Anyway, wuyuejin, I don't know where you got the idea that the Greats at the end of ROCH (ages 90+) would be weaker than Lin Chaoying (around age 60 when she died?). Certainly they were weaker than she at the time of First Huashan tournament (she already passed away by then). But after 50+ more years of practice since then, I'm sure they've surpassed her.

[flamer]

Was it said that LCY was actually better than the other Greats at the time of First Huashan? Maybe LCY's martial arts are specifically targeted at WCY and may not be that effective against other Greats.

[PJ]

In ROCH, Qiu Chuji said that:

丘处机道：「不是。论到武功，此人只有在四大宗师之上，只因她是女流，素不在外抛头露面，是以外人知道的不多，声名也是默默无闻。」

Now, if we keep in mind this is the same guy who questioned Yideng's ability to write on wood (a feat that even SPW Beggar Union chief Jie Feng can perform without trouble), I think we can assume he meant the Greats in their early years. Lin Chaoying was better than the Greats at some point. But the Post-16 years Greats outlived her by several decades, so they might/should have surpassed her.

[flamer]

I see. But wait, how would QCJ know of LCY's prowess? Maybe its usual Quanzhen's WCY-glorifying.

If LCY was in fact better than Greats before she died, and I believe in the doubling power theory, the ROCH would've definitely surpassed her.

[wuyuejin]

The power of LCY when she was in her prime = 1000 points. At the time of the 1st Huashan tourney, WCY's power = 500 points, and the other Greats' power = 400 pts. At the beginning of Divine Eagle, the power of the 4 alive original Greats increased to 490 pts. 16 years later, at the end of the novel, their power had been near doubled thus they had around 980 points, still weaker than LCY.

[PJ]

The power of LCY when she was in her prime = 1000 points. At the time of the 1st Huashan tourney, WCY's power = 500 points, and the other Greats' power = 400 pts. At the beginning of Divine Eagle, the power of the 4 alive original Greats increased to 490 pts. 16 years later, at the end of the novel, their power had been near doubled thus they had around 980 points, still weaker than LCY.

I don't think Jin Yong would agree with you on those numbers, dude...

[flamer]

Wow I seriously doubt LCY would be twice as strong as WCY.

[PJ]

But on the other hand, kyss does need a worthy heir...

[flamer]

But on the other hand, kyss does need a worthy heir...

Oh no way... I was just starting to get amused by kyss's numbers.

[wuyuejin]

Hm, I think the estimated power levels of LCY and the 5 Greats I posted are quite in the line with the descriptions by JY. In Divine Eagle JY wrote that LCY dedicated her life to creating an MA system that could easily nullify the martial arts of the Quanzhen school, so LCY's power = 1000 and WCY's power = 500. In Eagle Shooting WCY was described to be slightly stronger than the other 4 Greats who were only in their early 30s at the time of the 1st Huashan tourney therefore the 4 other Greats' power = 400. From the end of Eagle Shooting to the point when XLN and YG parted, 18 years or so passed. During this period of time the MA levels of the four original Greats became pretty equal, with HQG, YD, and OYF having 490 pts each, and HYS being slightly weaker, 480 pts, due to his lack of 9 Yin internal techniques. 16 years later, HYS with his intelligence was able to come up with some techniques that could make up for his incomplete 9 Yin manual, he now had 980 points, being on par with Yideng. Whether JY would agree with my estimations or not, we can never tell.

[flamer]

Hm, I think the estimated power levels of LCY and the 5 Greats I posted are quite in the line with the descriptions by JY. In Divine Eagle JY wrote that LCY dedicated her life to creating an MA system that could easily nullify the martial arts of the Quanzhen school, so LCY's power = 1000 and WCY's power = 500. In Eagle Shooting WCY was described to be slightly stronger than the other 4 Greats who were only in their early 30s at the time of the 1st Huashan tourney therefore the 4 other Greats' power = 400. From the end of Eagle Shooting to the point when XLN and YG parted, 18 years or so passed. During this period of time the MA levels of the four original Greats became pretty equal, with HQG, YD, and OYF having 490 pts each, and HYS being slightly weaker, 480 pts, due to his lack of 9 Yin internal techniques. 16 years later, HYS with his intelligence was able to come up with some techniques that could make up for his incomplete 9 Yin manual, he now had 980 points, being on par with Yideng. Whether JY would agree with my estimations or not, we can never tell.

As I suggested earlier. Most likely LCY's martial arts are specifically targeted at WCY and may not be that effective against other Greats.

[PJ]

Hm, I think the estimated power levels of LCY and the 5 Greats I posted are quite in the line with the descriptions by JY. In Divine Eagle JY wrote that LCY dedicated her life to creating an MA system that could easily nullify the martial arts of the Quanzhen school

Jin Yong also wrote that after Wang Chongyang absorbed the essence of 9 Yin, he conceived counters to all of Lin Chaoying's martial arts.

It was never stated in the novel that Lin Chaoying was better than Wang Chongyang in the end.

so LCY's power = 1000 and WCY's power = 500. In Eagle Shooting WCY was described to be slightly stronger than the other 4 Greats who were only in their early 30s at the time of the 1st Huashan tourney therefore the 4 other Greats' power = 400.

The forum has had lengthy discussion regarding Wang's level with respect to the other Greats. I believe Wang Chongyang was 4 to 5 times better than the young Greats at the time of First Huashan tournament.

[flamer]

The forum has had lengthy discussion regarding Wang's level with respect to the other Greats. I believe Wang Chongyang was 4 to 5 times better than the young Greats at the time of First Huashan tournament.

What... but he took what... 7 days to prove himself. And H7G thinks he can have a shot with full XL18Z etc etc.

[wuyuejin]

Hehe, it turns out I got some facts wrong, sry. So LCY was not stronger than WCY after he'd got his hand on the 9 Yin manual. I guess their peaks in MA were about equal to each other. Btw, if WCY was really 4 - 5 times better than the other Greats at the time of the 1st Huashan tourney as you said, PJ, then there's no way at the end of Divine Eagle Yideng and HYS could've surpassed LCY's level. Hence my estimations are partly confirmed and only several minor corrections need to be made: LCY = WCY = 1000 pts, The 1st Huashan tourney Greats and ZBT = 200 - 220 pts, The pre-16-year Greats = 480 - 490 pts, The end of Divine Eagle Greats = 980 pts - 1000 pts.

[yittz]

Disagree with the points and comparisons going on. There won't be a HSLJ if they are so far apart. I can imagine LOCH H7G inviting GJ to duel, but not H7G inviting the best of QZ/Peach Island students to compete at HSLJ. The gap is too far apart.

I believe WCY was clearly better than the other 4 at HuaShan, but not by much. Maybe 3x the gap between greats and QQR. At least with LOCH, JY intended them to be in the same level. ROCH screwed that up with the other greats living that long, and JY still wanting to maintain the QZ/AT dominance. I don't think the greats improved that much between end of LOCH and end of ROCH, but probably caught up to WCY when he died (remember he also improved after HSLJ, learning a bit of 9Yin).

LCY is the same level as WCY. Since she died earlier, she's probably weak at death vs others.

[PJ]

Here is what I said before

When Jin Yong wrote LOCH, perhaps he did NOT anticipate a sequel which will extend the lives of the Greats by 35+ more years. Therefore, Jin Yong wrote LOCH intending Wang Chongyang to be only marginally above the Greats, which was sufficient to make his point. However, when Jin Yong wrote the continuation of LOCH, he decided to maintain Wang Chongyang's superiority. What would have been nice is if he revised the contradictory content LOCH, but he didn't.

That's why the evidences from LOCH and those from ROCH regarding Wang Chongyang's actual martial arts level don't really match up, and we usually have to wreck our brain trying to make sense of ALL the evidences.