unusual weapon users vs bare handed users

[druid]

With the Sarced Fire Tablets in their hands, Yang Xiao and Fan YAo roamed Jiang Hu seeking other exotic weapon users... they chanced upon afew... GWM from ROCH, XLN from ROCH, 4 Jiang Nan play fellows from XAJH, DFBB from XAJH, Du monks from HSDS, Zhu Zilui from ROCH, HYS from ROCH/LOCH, HuoDu from ROCH and MuRong Fu from DGSD. Making friends through the bonds of dueling with their unusal weapons, they indulge in drinking... with the exception of the monks who merely sat aside and prayed....happily tilll.... an snide voice came...

" Weapons are no match for my bare hands. Come to Mt. HuaShan in three days time, where the moon in its circular form casts a shadow of the Mountain peak if you disagree with my words and to prove me wrong."

The party was angered. They agreed to the challenge.

Three days passed and the weapon users came to the peak. Another group was clearly in waiting...Among them were...

GJ from Roch, XF from DGSD, XC from DGSD, FZ from XAJH, XM elders from HSDS and QQR from LOCH/Roch.

It was then clear that the voice came from QQR.

Both groups faced each other.

Laughter came from DFBB and XF at the same time.

" Such handsome men!"

" Such... beauty... bah. My Ah Zhu is much superior."

That was it.

The fight begun.

So... your votes...

Would metal etch deeply into the flesh?

Or flesh breaks down metal?

[yittz]

Bare hand does have Xu Zhu... but HYS would come out with some also strategy with combos and formations galore. Easy gg to the weapons team.

[flamer]

Maybe Duan Yu should be there. He can show the unusual weapon users the true meaning of no sword>sword.

[ChanceEncounter]

Maybe Duan Yu should be there. He can show the unusual weapon users the true meaning of no sword>sword.

He still uses a sword. It's just made of qi.

[S Beaver]

Maybe Duan Yu should be there. He can show the unusual weapon users the true meaning of no sword>sword.

according to your logic, so can Guo Jing & Xiao feng...

[flamer]

He still uses a sword. It's just made of qi.

He uses the essence of sword, but without a tangible sword. ie No Sword > Sword.

GJ/XF's XL18Z is not sword based martial art.

[S Beaver]

He uses the essence of sword, but without a tangible sword. ie No Sword > Sword.

GJ/XF's XL18Z is not sword based martial art.

Duan Yu does not use the essence of sword, dear.

[ChanceEncounter]

He uses the essence of sword, but without a tangible sword. ie No Sword > Sword.

GJ/XF's XL18Z is not sword based martial art.

No, it's not the 'essence' of sword. It's still a sword form with sword stances. Just that instead of a metal blade, the user focuses their sword qi into a super sharp edge.

Remember what FQY said, a sword could be anything, it could be a finger, for example. That doesn't mean that they have ascended to the level of overcoming a sword without a sword.

DGQB's philosophical level is based upon each level ascending over the rest. Thereby, first he uses a sharp sword. Then he uses a flexible sword that would trump over the sharp sword. Then he uses a big, heavy sword that would trump over either the flexible sword or the sharp sword. Then he uses a wooden sword that would trump over the heavy iron sword, flexible sword, and sharp sword. Finally, he gets to the no sword stage, which would trump over the wooden sword, heavy iron sword, flexible sword, and sharp sword.

In other words, it's a Daoist principle of being better without a sword that he would be if he was given a sword. For example, if DGQB was given no sword, and his DGQB doppelganger was given a sword (of any type), the one with no sword would beat the one with the sword. If Duan Yu fought his doppleganger with a sword, it's no guarantee he would beat him. In fact, more than likely, they would just end up pointing fingers at each with (6MSJ).

Therefore, 6MSJ isn't the "no sword overcoming a sword," because the entire principle behind 6MSJ is using a finger technique to generate sword qi. It'd be no different than 1YZ, except that it's on a higher level of mastery.

To truly understand DGQB's sword techniques, you need to know some Daoist ideology as well as take a good, solid read through XAJH.

[flamer]

Essentially, Duan Yu does not use a sword (physical metal sword) yet performs sword techniques. ie No Sword and Duan Yu can pwn them so No Sword>Sword. My first post wasn't a serious post anyway so just chill out. It was quite obvious.

[S Beaver]

Essentially, Duan Yu does not use a sword (physical metal sword) yet performs sword techniques. ie No Sword and Duan Yu can pwn them so No Sword>Sword. My first post wasn't a serious post anyway so just chill out. It was quite obvious.

how does duan yu perform sword techniques when he has never learned the art of swored in the first place?

any examples of how he actually weild the "qi" like a sword?

[flamer]

how does duan yu perform sword techniques when he has never learned the art of swored in the first place?

any examples of how he actually weild the "qi" like a sword?

well I wasn't serious but if you want examples.

只半日工夫，段誉已将六张图形上所绘的各处穴道尽都通过。只觉精神爽利，左右无
事，又逐一去看少商、商阳、中冲、关冲、少冲、少泽六路剑法的图形。但见红线黑线，纵
横交错，头绪纷繁之极，心想：“这样烦难的剑招，又如何记得住？

段誉听得保定帝等人的惊呼吸之声，知道不妙，双手
同时出力挥出，他心下惊慌，真气自然涌出，右手少冲剑，左手少泽剑


When JMZ was fighting the other 6 Monks, he recocognized that the 6 swords
were actually individual swordplays.

[S Beaver]

Firstly, each "sword" was located on different fingers (right hand + pinky of left hand), so it is much easier to recognize.
The basis of 6MSJ:
本因道：“六脉神剑，并非真剑，乃是以一阳指的指力化作剑气，有质无形，可称无形气剑。所谓六脉，即手之六 脉太阴肺经、厥阴心包经、少阴心经、太阳小肠经、阳明胃经、少阳三焦经。"

That being said, it is not to say that 6MSJ did not have sword stances.
But rather, the essentials of what Duan Yu gained was not the "exotic stances" but mostly how to channel the qi to his fingers, which is of course, the focus of the art. 6MSJ was not meant to be a "sword" but rather a "qi".

In the end, he still does NOT understand "the essence of sword". Give him a normal sword and he is likely hopeless. How can he use essence of sword when he does not understand the essence of sword in the first place?

[flamer]

Him understanding swordplay or not is irrelevant because the point I was trying to say was that he did use sword techniques. It was only very loosely played on no sword > sword. Note that he USES it, but he may or may not understand it (most likely not).

[S Beaver]

Him understanding swordplay or not is irrelevant because the point I was trying to say was that he did use sword techniques. It was only very loosely played on no sword > sword.

but the point is...it is not necesarily "sword" technique, but rather ways to slash with qi. Is it any different from using a "sabre" technqiue?

[flamer]

but the point is...it is not necesarily "sword" technique, but rather ways to slash with qi. Is it any different from using a "sabre" technqiue?

Lol yes because 6MSJ is based on SWORD techniques. 6 of them in fact. DY wasn't just randomly slashing around, he was actually using those techniques.

[ChanceEncounter]

Lol yes because 6MSJ is based on SWORD techniques. 6 of them in fact. DY wasn't just randomly slashing around, he was actually using those techniques.

No it wasn't. It was based on sword qi that's shot from the fingers. The technique isn't about using a sword. If DY had a sword, he would be hopeless. Just because it's called a 'jian' doesn't mean that it's a 'jian fa.'

6MSJ is no more a 'sword' technique than 1YZ. Furthermore, even if it counts as a sword technique, it still wouldn't fit into DGQB's 'overcoming a sword without a sword' philosophy. By your logic, Guo Jing, XF, YG, etc all reached this stage because they can beat lesser sword-wielding foes without a sword.

[flamer]

No it wasn't. It was based on sword qi that's shot from the fingers. The technique isn't about using a sword. If DY had a sword, he would be hopeless. Just because it's called a 'jian' doesn't mean that it's a 'jian fa.'

6MSJ is no more a 'sword' technique than 1YZ. Furthermore, even if it counts as a sword technique, it still wouldn't fit into DGQB's 'overcoming a sword without a sword' philosophy. By your logic, Guo Jing, XF, YG, etc all reached this stage because they can beat lesser sword-wielding foes without a sword.

Hey for the... 3rd time, the no sword>sword thing was VERY loosely tied in this case.

6MSJ is actually made up of sword techniques. 少商、商阳、中冲、关冲、少冲、少泽六路剑法的图形。

MRB calls it 天下第一剑. Its more sword than YYZ's style qi.

XL18Z, Sad Palms etc are FAR not sword based than 6MSJ, which is indeed comprised of individual SWORD techniques, just shot out using qi. Its using internal energy to shoot sword qi in accordance to individual or more swordplays.

[ChanceEncounter]

Yeah, I understand you were semi-joking about the no sword point, so I'm not going to belabor it.

YG had 'sword qi' when he was training in the waves, but he hasn't reached no sword stage.

6MSJ is a 'sword technique' in a very nominal sense. It's still primarily a finger technique, in that it's essential to use the 6 fingers that it is connected to. Therefore the technique still has rigid boundaries, and the technique is still 'swords,' just that the sword is made of qi instead of metal. But since there's no accompanying 6MSJ metal sword technique, it's impossible to claim that such a method would overcome the sword, considering that it's one of several finger techniques that can be used to beat sword users.

[S Beaver]

6MSJ is actually made up of sword techniques. 少商、商阳、中冲、关冲、少冲、少泽六路剑法的图形。

but duan yu did not necessarily absorb the "sword" part of the deal. He basically pointed his fingers and shot qi out of it. in that case, the skill itself is no more of a "sword" technique than a "arrow" or "javalin" technique.

take into consideration, if a person were to perform a "slash", how would it differ between using a sword, a sabre, and axe, etc?
Then, if the person used a "stick" to slash at someone, what type of a technique would it be? a sword? a sabre? an axe?
what about using "qi"?
the question is, if you're using a "substitute" weapon, what still makes it qualify as a "sword technique", "sabre technique", "axe technique", etc?
does simply pointing fingers qualify it as "sword technique"?

merely being "called" a "sword technique" doesn't necessarily make it a sword technique. Murong Bo had never witnessed 6MSJ.

seems like i'm very intent on procrastinating, tonight. bad. bad. bad!

[flamer]

Yeah, I understand you were semi-joking about the no sword point, so I'm not going to belabor it.

YG had 'sword qi' when he was training in the waves, but he hasn't reached no sword stage.

6MSJ is a 'sword technique' in a very nominal sense. It's still primarily a finger technique, in that it's essential to use the 6 fingers that it is connected to. Therefore the technique still has rigid boundaries, and the technique is still 'swords,' just that the sword is made of qi instead of metal. But since there's no accompanying 6MSJ metal sword technique, it's impossible to claim that such a method would overcome the sword, considering that it's one of several finger techniques that can be used to beat sword users.

Yea but I wasn't claiming that this is an instance of no-sword.

The 6MSJ technique is made up of 6 individual sword techniques.

I'll reiterate that MRB did call it 天下第一剑. Thats worth a mention too IMO. He did not call it 天下第一指 or such.