Martial arts worthy of "shengong" status.

[kyss of the sword]

the difference between low level skills and high level skills is the theories behind them, the top level skills have a varity of use in battle and are extremely versetile. even HL18Z which is straight forward and simple on the outside has deep and complex theories in use in battle and ways to unleash force. if you had learned a shengong level art to the fullest deepest part, you can use the theories in unlimited fashion.

[flamer]

the difference between low level skills and high level skills is the theories behind them, the top level skills have a varity of use in battle and are extremely versetile. even HL18Z which is straight forward and simple on the outside has deep and complex theories in use in battle and ways to unleash force. if you had learned a shengong level art to the fullest deepest part, you can use the theories in unlimited fashion.

I hope you're not suggesting XL18Z with the belly. Because that will not be XL18Z anymore even if it uses the theories of XL18Z.

[Ren Wo Xing]

As FQY said, if you must insist that DG9J is this or DG9J is that, then let the name of DG9J be forgotten.

Two comments.

1) It wasn't FQY who said that; it was a 'flavor comment' by Laviathan who said it while discussing DG9J. Even as a 'flavor' comment, what it meant was that DG9J itself is not restricted to anything; it does NOT mean, however, that anything is DG9J.

2) DG9J does have specific stances and techniques (which is why it is so hard to learn); however, a superb practitioner can reach a level where he is spontaneously generating moves apropos to his exact situation which did not originally exist within the DG9J codex, but which came out from the DG9J spirit and the DG9J training. That wasn't the case for LHC in that scenario; he was simply using a Huashan sect sword technique, albeit with his hand instead of his sword. He had already used his hands as swords previously with Yue Lingshan, so there's nothing special about that at all.

[PJ]

It's not the same in any way.

As usual, I believe you're wrong.

Executing sword without a sword is just mechanics; there's nothing special about that. The motions of sword is the same regardless of the sword. You're still executing sword moves.

For DBI, the way it's explicitly described to work is that it's powered by a puff of breath. The body is then protected and energy can be shifted to even rebound attacks.

When you reach a high level in swordplay, that's when you can do the "no sword" thing.

So why can't someone reaching a high level in DBI do the "talking" thing? I do not understand where you're coming from.

Can there be a martial art that provides similar protection without the puff of breath aspect? Sure, but it's not DBI anymore than HL18P is DG9J. It turns into merely "internal energy protection".

Incorrect, as "requirements" are merely guidelines and are not set in stone, so you can't say that just b/c a low level practitioner exhibits a certain behavior, then someone with 40x his power would exhibit the same behavior.

When you take away the definitive aspect of a martial art, even if the results are similar, it's not longer the same art.

And regulating breath is something definitive? Give me a break. That's a matter of internal energy cultivation.

[flamer]

So you are saying NOTHING is set in stone?

So actually XL18Z can be done with the belly and I can use 6MSJ through the hair. Obviously there are definite requirements for martials arts and I believe regulating breath is definititve for Diamond Body.

[PJ]

Within limits, obviously.

[CC]

So why can't someone reaching a high level in DBI do the "talking" thing? I do not understand where you're coming from.

And regulating breath is something definitive? Give me a break. That's a matter of internal energy cultivation.

To put it in perspective. Lets say the creator of DBI can't do the talking thing. Some guy like Xu Zhu comes along, learns DBI and after some time, does it while burping and farting and talking. Is it still DBI or something as different from DBI as DGKB's wooden Sword vs DGKB's flexible sword?

I mean, if some guy learns to _kick_ a javelin further than the current Olympic Gold medallist, is it still called Javelin 'throwing'?

It can be considered semantics I think. If someone can do DBI while talking, you can call it Golden Invincible Bell Kung Fu or you can call it DBI Level 1 (and call Kong Jian's DBI Level 3). Either way, you can be right.

[flamer]

Within limits, obviously.

Yea so there are limits. So why is this regulating breath business not bound by such limits?

[ChanceEncounter]

Yea so there are limits. So why is this regulating breath business not bound by such limits?

I actually have to agree with this right here.

There are limits to how and when someone can breathe, and in certain arts, this is critical.

Can someone like Xu Zhu just stand there and circulate his internal and have attacks bounce off? Sure. But this is no longer DBI proper.

[PJ]

There are limits to how and when someone can breathe, and in certain arts, this is critical.

I still think that whether it is critical or not, largely depends on your level of cultivation.

Can someone like Xu Zhu just stand there and circulate his internal and have attacks bounce off? Sure. But this is no longer DBI proper.

That's possible, of course. But if Xuzhu can also use the technique of DBI to protect himself, while transcending the breathing limitation, even though it may not be necessary to use DBI any more, then he is still using DBI.

By the way, any perl programmers reading about this DBI stuff?

[PJ]

Another example:

Normally, a requirement to talking is to use your tongue, mouth, and lips; would you agree?

Does Duan Yanqing use any of that? Nope.

So is he still talking?

[tape]

I'd say that's semantics again.

Since only he does it, the easiest way to describe it is he's talking with his stomache

If ten million people knew how to do it, we'd have a a word for it. Then people would say no hes not talking, he's ______ing. But for now, he is talking with his stomach since we have no word for it.

[flamer]

That's possible, of course. But if Xuzhu can also use the technique of DBI to protect himself, while transcending the breathing limitation, even though it may not be necessary to use DBI any more, then he is still using DBI.

If Xuzhu used Diamond Body, he would not be able to speak. Or if he spoke, he is not using Diamond Body. Thats what I think.

[PJ]

If Xuzhu used Diamond Body, he would not be able to speak. Or if he spoke, he is not using Diamond Body. Thats what I think.

Disputed. Being able to speak or not is dependent on your level of cultivation, not a hard-coded constraint by the art. That's what I think

[flamer]

Disputed. Being able to speak or not is dependent on your level of cultivation, not a hard-coded constraint by the art. That's what I think

Yea thats our disagreement all this while isn't it?

I believe no-talking is a requirement of Diamond Body no matter what the level of practitioner is.

[ChanceEncounter]

I'd say that's semantics again.

Since only he does it, the easiest way to describe it is he's talking with his stomache

If ten million people knew how to do it, we'd have a a word for it. Then people would say no hes not talking, he's ______ing. But for now, he is talking with his stomach since we have no word for it.

I have to agree with this.

Duan Yanqing isn't "talking" in the denotative definition of the word. He's not using verbal speech via his oral prowess.

Is it possible that if XZ used DBI, he could talk? I suppose. But it's an argument without much credence.

[AnhHung]

If Xuzhu used Diamond Body, he would not be able to speak. Or if he spoke, he is not using Diamond Body. Thats what I think.

Exactly.
My impression of the skill is that "no speak" is a requirement. In fact it is the key requirement. If you follow the way of thought of XX during the fight; he reasoned that the key to break this skill is to make the practioner speak.

It the breath of air trapped inside the body that gives the extra protection. Removing this will alter the intent of the skill and result in another skill.

Lets go back to the javelin example. What is the requirement of javelin; the practioner must throw the javelin. Of course there are ways to improve you skill; changing the way you run, the way you extend the arm back or perhaps the way you move you hip. This is improvement of the skill. Finding out that you can make the javelin travel longer by kicking it, thats is a new skill.

Executing DG9J with your finger is still DG9J. Thats because the original intent and theory is still there and you are still executing sword moves.
Another example. HYS changed his sword skill to become a palm skill. Now the original intent is gone and this is in fact a new MA. Yes it is based on the sword skill and it might even resemple, but its not the same.