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Thread: Heaven Sword and Dragon Saber-2008

  1. #361
    Senior Member resident:alien's Avatar
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    One thing for sure I'd like to see is ZM get knocked the ***K out by ZWJ!

    LMAO
    [ 空蕩的街景 想找個人放感情 做這種決定 是寂寞與我為鄰...我們的愛情 像你路過的風景 一直在進行 腳步卻從來不會為我而停...給你的愛一直很安靜 來交換你偶爾給的關心 明明是三個人的電影 我卻始終不能有姓名...你說愛像雲 要自在飄浮才美麗 我終於相信 分手的理由有時候很動聽...給你的愛一直很安靜 來交換你偶爾給的關心 明明是三個人的電影 我卻始終不能有姓名... 一直很安靜 ]

  2. #362
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    Default The Tao of Xiaozhao

    Quote Originally Posted by 0-0-0
    well i think it comes through in the novel because in the novel, Xiao Zhao was my favourite character- both ZM and ZZR are IMO so much more b!tchy and evil in the novel. In adaptation though, Xiao Zhao is never my favourite, it's usually Zhao Min.
    Sort of works the other way round for me. In the book, Xiaozhao is just a minor character who gets very little pagetime and isn't very interesting. But in adaptations, it seems common to expand the Xiaozhao role. Add a lively performance from an eye-catching actress, and Xiaozhao is suddenly a star. This, however, has more to do with the scriptwriter/director/actress than the book.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yanfeng
    I guess I'm prejudiced by having watched the '86 HSDS first... and there the earlier story is almost as interesting as Wuji's story. So even when reading the books I was happy to read about Susu and Cuishan's story.
    I watched the 2003 adaptation, which has a very sympathetic, soft-focus portrayal of Zhou Zhiruo, played by Gao Yuanyuan (who seems to specialise in victim roles). I then read the book, looking forward to ZZR's scenes, and was surprised to see how Jinyong actually wrote her: with a spine-chilling amount of 'feminine inscrutability'. That was the end of Zhiruo Meimei for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by yanfeng
    Its true ZWJ is a little bland (skimmed milk fits the bill! ) But I'm saying that quite a few of JY's other heros are known for being steadfast and loyal (GuoJing), smart and loyal (YangGuo), playful and loyal (Linghu Chong)... but if you had to use two words to describe ZWJ, wouldn't "indecisive" creep into it? Not that I don't love ZWJ.... he really is a sweet guy, and he and ZM really do complement each other- one so devious and the other so guileless!
    Without Zhao Min, Yi Tian would be unbearable. I think JY created her because he realised Zhang Wuji was just a bit too blandly earnest and wanted to poke fun at him. There isn't much of an explanation as to what ZM sees in ZWJ, though: maybe, at most, a challenge? If the two of them were a real couple, I'm convinced ZM would eventually get bored. Someone like Linghu Chong would keep her attention for longer.

    Quote Originally Posted by yanfeng
    My interpretation was the Mr Cha is a little traditional in his view of women- where beautiful and not-offensive are the highest virtues. Though there's something to be said about how evil ZM is at points in the novel- she comes across as much more random as well, the serials do tend to tone down her fits of chilly humor.
    That's rather strange of Mr Cha, given that he fills his novels with women who are vicious, calculating or unpredictable (and sometimes all three at once). One wonders what he's trying to say...

    In the novel, ZM goes from villain to heroine, with ZZR going in the opposite direction (and back again). Ultimately they both turn out to be typical Jinyongian women: nasty but affectionate, perfectly pretty, and inexplicably attracted to the main character.
    Last edited by owbjhx; 02-20-08 at 09:18 PM.

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    Senior Member vivi_g's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by forU4nd1 View Post
    and SFF to .... what...err.. face unguilty <---can't express my feeling....... doesn't fit..
    Although she has a sweet face, I think she can still pull off ZZR. She was very vicious looking in Jiao Yi Sheng Mama, so she'll do fine as ZZR. But then, I don't want to see her in second lead again.

  5. #365
    Senior Member 0-0-0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vivi_g View Post
    Although she has a sweet face, I think she can still pull off ZZR. She was very vicious looking in Jiao Yi Sheng Mama, so she'll do fine as ZZR. But then, I don't want to see her in second lead again.
    i think ZZR is actually considered the main lead? not sure but that's how it's usually credited at least in 86/02

  6. #366
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    Please just show the result.... ( hate wandering, and fail in the end ).
    i guess HSDS still had a long way to go.

    ZMM must the prettiest Girl..........

  7. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0-0-0 View Post
    i think ZZR is actually considered the main lead? not sure but that's how it's usually credited at least in 86/02
    Probably of screentime?

  8. #368
    Senior Member yanfeng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by owbjhx View Post
    I then read the book, looking forward to ZZR's scenes, and was surprised to see how Jinyong actually wrote her: with a spine-chilling amount of 'feminine inscrutability'. That was the end of Zhiruo Meimei for me.
    Hehehe.. yeah, I was surprised at how evil ZZR was in the books- and much as I didn't like her much in the serials, I liked her less when I read the books. Actually the same goes for ZM, she was definitely less likeable in the books, though there's still a certain 'cool' about ZM which I still liked!

    Quote Originally Posted by owbjhx View Post
    There isn't much of an explanation as to what ZM sees in ZWJ, though: maybe, at most, a challenge? If the two of them were a real couple, I'm convinced ZM would eventually get bored. Someone like Linghu Chong would keep her attention for longer.
    Perhaps ZM is attracted because ZWJ is so guileless? I imagine ZM grew up an environment of high politics and in contrast, someone who grew up in a deserted island with only his parents and a doting god-father is an attractively uncomplicated person?

    (Besides, ZWJ is a sweet-heart! He really does love his Wudang uncles and Grand Shifu, sincerely cares for all the Ming Sect people and ZM... and innocently falls for every one of ZM's ploys, plus he blushes and stammers in her presence. )

    Quote Originally Posted by owbjhx View Post
    That's rather strange of Mr Cha, given that he fills his novels with women who are vicious, calculating or unpredictable (and sometimes all three at once). One wonders what he's trying to say...
    Ahh... but it seems the hero often ends up with the nice girls. Think of Princess Fragrance and even Xiao Long Nu... I feel like Jingyong does give the hero's favorite female a veneer of "cool", but ultimately they're rather soft (e.g., I'm often sad that after Xiao Long Nu gets raped, she turns into a bit of a victim, from someone who's so powerful and cool in the first part of the story!) Let's not get into why CJL would prefer the relatively unexciting (but very beautiful and very docile and very nice) Princess Fragrance over HQT.

    Quote Originally Posted by owbjhx View Post
    In the novel, ZM goes from villain to heroine, with ZZR going in the opposite direction (and back again). Ultimately they both turn out to be typical Jinyongian women: nasty but affectionate, perfectly pretty, and inexplicably attracted to the main character.
    I actually think ZZR and ZM are unusual in that they are quite genuinely nasty characters in the book- which is why JY lamented in his epilogue that he couldn't figure out a way to have ZWJ end up with Xiao Zhao

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    Default Naughty & Nice

    Quote Originally Posted by yanfeng
    Perhaps ZM is attracted because ZWJ is so guileless? I imagine ZM grew up an environment of high politics and in contrast, someone who grew up in a deserted island with only his parents and a doting god-father is an attractively uncomplicated person?
    It's plausible, and to some extent this is why Huang Rong attached herself to Guo Jing. The problem with Yi Tian is that there's no (or very little) explanation, either direct or implied, why Zhao Min (and, for that matter, Zhou Zhiruo) fell for Zhang Wuji. The good thing about making a TV adaptation, then, is that you can correct this flaw in the original novel.

    Quote Originally Posted by yanfeng
    Ahh... but it seems the hero often ends up with the nice girls. Think of Princess Fragrance and even Xiao Long Nu... I feel like Jingyong does give the hero's favorite female a veneer of "cool", but ultimately they're rather soft (e.g., I'm often sad that after Xiao Long Nu gets raped, she turns into a bit of a victim, from someone who's so powerful and cool in the first part of the story!) Let's not get into why CJL would prefer the relatively unexciting (but very beautiful and very docile and very nice) Princess Fragrance over HQT.
    Yang Guo ended up with the nice girl, but there are too many counterexamples. Even without mentioning ZWJ and his dad, there's GJ (one of HR's defining characteristics is her moral inferiority), Duan Yu (Mu Wanqing), and Linghu Chong (Ren Yingying is cool but rather vicious). And Xiao Feng basically ended up with A'Zi. If anything, Jinyong seems to be suggesting that love is more of a civilising force for women than it is for men.

  10. #370
    Senior Member yanfeng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by owbjhx View Post
    It's plausible, and to some extent this is why Huang Rong attached herself to Guo Jing. The problem with Yi Tian is that there's no (or very little) explanation, either direct or implied, why Zhao Min (and, for that matter, Zhou Zhiruo) fell for Zhang Wuji. The good thing about making a TV adaptation, then, is that you can correct this flaw in the original novel.
    I would agree that the novel gives very little indication of why ZM or ZR would fall for ZWJ. In fact that's a bit of gripe I have with a lot of JY's novels- its written from the hero's point of view (even if its all 3rd person), and so very little motivation, history, character development is given to the female lead characters. Which is something I like about a lot of the new HSDS series adaptations- they try to give ZM and ZR stories of their own, independent from ZWJ's story. In particular I love how HSDS 2000 (for all its faults) shows us ZM and her family's political struggles, its character delvopment and also gives a sense of all she had to give up when she left the Mongolians.

    Quote Originally Posted by owbjhx View Post
    Yang Guo ended up with the nice girl, but there are too many counterexamples. Even without mentioning ZWJ and his dad, there's GJ (one of HR's defining characteristics is her moral inferiority), Duan Yu (Mu Wanqing), and Linghu Chong (Ren Yingying is cool but rather vicious). And Xiao Feng basically ended up with A'Zi. If anything, Jinyong seems to be suggesting that love is more of a civilising force for women than it is for men.
    True, a lot of JY's women start off ferocious to end up more civil. I'm torn as to whether that's a positive sign about JY's attitude to women. On one hand he gives them some character development, but on the other hand it seems alot of it is about becoming more docile, though I'm sure its debatable.

    By the way, on the another thread me and Sunnysnow have been discussing a little about whether views of the ideal wuxia female have changed over time. I mentioned that my mom is actually a fan of PF over HQT (PF is sweeter!) and that I've yet to meet someone of my age group feel the same way.

    Perhaps that's part of why wuxia film adaptations have changed the personalities of the women from the book somewhat- in order to reflect the changing tastes of viewers. Its also my (maybe day-dreaming) speculation that that's what makes HSDS the most often remade story of the condor trilogy- that ZM is so strong a character in her own right and modern audiences dig that!

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    Default 金庸十二钗

    Quote Originally Posted by yanfeng
    I would agree that the novel gives very little indication of why ZM or ZR would fall for ZWJ. In fact that's a bit of gripe I have with a lot of JY's novels- its written from the hero's point of view (even if its all 3rd person), and so very little motivation, history, character development is given to the female lead characters. Which is something I like about a lot of the new HSDS series adaptations- they try to give ZM and ZR stories of their own, independent from ZWJ's story. In particular I love how HSDS 2000 (for all its faults) shows us ZM and her family's political struggles, its character delvopment and also gives a sense of all she had to give up when she left the Mongolians.
    Jinyong's books are fundamentally male-geek pulp fantasy; the TV adaptations, though, tend to try to appeal to a wider audience. I'm normally quite a purist when it comes to adapting novels, because most good books tend to have a certain integrity that scriptwriters shouldn't tamper with. But Yi Tian's strangely loose structure means you don't damage the story much if you shorten the earlier, less interesting bits and concentrate on the later, more fun bits. I suspect Zhang Jizhong will do precisely this. If anything, it makes commercial sense. For instance, Zhao Min's first appearance in the novel is in Chapter 23 (of 40 chapters); but if ZJZ casts a well-known actress like An Yixuan in the role, to get the best return on the investment he has to introduce her much earlier (and give her more screentime) than the novel does.

    Quote Originally Posted by yanfeng
    True, a lot of JY's women start off ferocious to end up more civil. I'm torn as to whether that's a positive sign about JY's attitude to women. On one hand he gives them some character development, but on the other hand it seems alot of it is about becoming more docile, though I'm sure its debatable.
    Well...I think he's consistently indulgent towards female characters who are vicious (e.g. Li Mochou), but judges vicious male characters with far less mercy. And then he made Zhou Zhiruo the best-written woman in his major wuxia novels - only to run out of ideas as to what to do with her...

    Quote Originally Posted by yanfeng
    Perhaps that's part of why wuxia film adaptations have changed the personalities of the women from the book somewhat- in order to reflect the changing tastes of viewers. Its also my (maybe day-dreaming) speculation that that's what makes HSDS the most often remade story of the condor trilogy- that ZM is so strong a character in her own right and modern audiences dig that!
    ZM is certainly very diggable. I wish JY had centered the novel on her, rather than Zhang The Uninspiring. It's a surprise that remaking Yi Tian is so popular, though. Maybe because there's no 'definitive' TVB version? (People still talk in hushed tones about the 80s "LOCH" and "ROCH"; not so much "HSDS".)

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    i don't know. here in california and where i use to live at, seattle, wa, tacoma, wa, longview, wa. people love all the 80 series. condor trilogies especially, lotch. every old folks, adults 18 over love the impression barbara and felix left for these characters. they love the way andy idy love seem so pure and real. for yi tian, everyone loved tony leung from his other roles after and making them enjoy this one b/c his character is so different from his other roles. they also like his supporting actors n actress, especially kitty and sheren tang, which they paired off again in hap hak hang.

    when people who watch heaven sword dragon saber, they enjoy how zwj is like so gullible/pure that he gets easily tricked by zhou mei. they like the chemistry how she always tease him, but love the sad zzr/sheren with her innocent looks. i enjoy yi tian remake b/c i like looking forward to the main characters of series rising up, taking out powerful sect leaders and demonstrating cool skills. reason why i as disappointed with 03 version, b/c the fight scenes weren't to my liking. i even enjoy 2000 version better which gave off good music and suspense to the fighting scenes.

    ie, when lawrence(mokei) fought everyone showing his cool fist thingy, magic stance, etc was awesome in 2000 version n 86(tony leung does his move without flaw, even his tai chi was good). 03 had better fighting scenes during the less important ones. 03 emphasis more tai chi then showing off his magic stance, or 9 yang. which y i like the anticipation of 86s battle scenes as well as 2000 over 03. plus they had better casting imo and most old folks i know except 2000 made mistake of lawrence as mo kei. but i guess its b/c wasn't mo kei suppose to be trapped in that cave for 5-10 years or so?

    so yeah, for me most part i enjoy is the fight scenes, characters portrayal, costume design, cgi. even tho 86 was old school, their real martial arts choreography was better then most new series. 2000 was good miscast main lead, i rather they have alex as mo kei in 2000, then that movie would've been off the charts. 02, gao yuan yaun, her acting back then was duller the li ye fei(sorry people) her facial expression doesn't change much. even in her newer series. but the other actresses did a very good job on their roles.

    sorry to get off topic tho, but like in roth06, they cut out alot of important fight scenes and even young yang guo scenes on peach island which toke out more of the story. but still with the hi expectations people had in that version, i thought the fighting scenes would've been even better, but overall i enjoyed other versions better. heck even richie ren version had some better fight sequence. like during hero meet, i expected yang guo to show off his 9 negative/positive stance like he did in 95 or previous version. it gives us viewer like"oh how cool" making us enjoy the series more since he's showing off his skills to us as well as people in the show.

    it's all about presentation leading to anticipation. it's always cool to see the main characters do something cool. richie ren version, he even defeated all those characters with ease which was awesome. then having them change story guo jing huang rong captured, he used the 9 positive/negative to find their location using mind manipulation thingy. i enjoyed that version b/c they showed another variation of the 9 yin/yang tech then just saying it. in rotch06, u really didn't get a glimpse of the technique but more love.

    i hope they remake yi tian, but sorry to say i hope zjz doesn't produce it. his way of production doesn't give off that wuxia feeling tvb does or even china series like chinese paladin producer gives off. i can't really explain it but yeah. if a new yi tian was to come out i hope the china people who are doing the new lotch 08 will be doing this one as well, and won't mind seeing hu ge as wu ji. then nic tse as yang guo. perfect fit i say.

  13. #373
    Senior Member loislane's Avatar
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    I heard its confirmed already that ZJZ will produce HSDS soon? Is this true? Is there any confirmed article news?

    I'd like to see Bobby Dou as Zhang Wuji^^

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    Member Katherine Yang's Avatar
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    Yeah, i also read that HSDS would be filming soon. However, the cast has not confirmed yet.

    I do not hope Bobby Dou as ZWJ, since i think he definitely get that role
    dont ask me why... i just have that feeling (and i believe it's true )

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    i'm hoping for an ady an and yang mi collaboration!!!!
    i know many people hope to see sff, who is a good actress, but i just don't think she is beautiful. she has a great side profile, but that's about it. she looks strange from the front...but i'd rather her get a good role in this series than some other actress who has no talent. at least sff can act and is graceful.

    but really, i'm hoping for ady an and yang mi (with fuller cheeks) though both ladies need to gain weight...
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    Senior Member sunnysnow's Avatar
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    I would be lovely if Ady plays ZM, YM plays Xiao Zhao and SFF plays ZZR. Two actors I think would fare well as ZWJ would be Bobby Dou and Qiao Zhen Yu.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunnysnow View Post
    I would be lovely if Ady plays ZM, YM plays Xiao Zhao and SFF plays ZZR. Two actors I think would fare well as ZWJ would be Bobby Dou and Qiao Zhen Yu.
    the main problem with this is, sff looks much older than ady.

    i'll be happy if either ady or ym plays zm, most likely, the role will go to ady as there has been hints. but that leaves no major role for ym that's appropriate, for it'll be difficult for me to see her as zzr. however, it's also difficult for me to see sff as zzr given how much older she looks compared to zm (even if their age gap isn't that wide in real life).

    actually, i can't figure out who to cast, but i can't see either sff or ym as zzr. ym looks more age appropriate when placed next to ady and sff looks more appropriate for the role as she has a sad appearance to her. again, beauty wise, i don't think sff fits the role.

    oh well, i'll just see who gets casted and then complain about it later. i guess i'm happy that at least ady will be in this series (if her heart condition improves). then she'll get better roles in due time.

    omg, no li qian! she does not look like a xz...not even close.
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    It would be great if YM could play one of the leading roles but I think out of all the characters in HSDS, she suits and will be able to portray Xiao Zhao best. YM is prettier than Ady and XZ is prettier than ZM. YM is also capable of giving off that very sweet, understanding and docile air without appearing too bland and boring. Age-wise, if we compare her to Ady, SFF etc, she's significantly younger and XZ is the youngest of the 4 women.

    I think SFF is beautiful (well imo ), sophisticated and moves with grace. She excels in both evil and tragic-type roles as well, and is a fine actress, which should make ZZR interesting to watch. She does look more matured than Ady though (and somewhat more classy)- which might end up with what we got for HSDS'03. Alyssa is quite abit older than GYY though the latter looks slightly more matured than her in the series.
    Last edited by sunnysnow; 03-25-08 at 02:25 PM.
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    Yikes, I'm concerned that Ady is not going to be able to do this due to her health (and goodness knows health should come first for everyone even if I'll be sad she misses another great role for her! Urg!)

    I'm still standing by my votes, though I'd add YM and Li Bingbing in there since I agree with various posters here and in other forums that they'll make super additions to my dream-team cast!

    ZM:
    *Ady An (LBB would be super as well- classy, smart and sassy suit her!)
    ZZR:
    *Chu Ja-Hyun (who did evil and innocent so well in the latest Chu Liu Xiang) Though I'm starting to wonder if Hu Jing wouldn't be good too- she can do evil and sweet! )
    XZ:
    *Still like LiQian in the role- she's cute and young and is a great actress of sad scenes as well! (Think YM would also be good in this role!)
    Ying Susu: Esther Kwan (Thinking about book and sword lately and rewatching bits of the 2002 production makes me miss her very much in wuxia!)

    WuJi:
    *Still rooting for Wallace Chung or Jason Wu, though Bobby Dou is a good choice, I think I'd prefer Wuji to be able to look vulnerable, and Bobby seems too 'strong' for the role in my mind.
    Hmmm... speaking of vulnerable, anyone thinks Chen Kun would make a good Wuji? He's known as the "Prince of Melancoly" with fabulous reason (any series where he turns his sad gaze at a female would prove it! ) and I've liked his chemistry with a variety of actresses, plus he looked good in Sword of the Outlaw where I loved him with Li BingBing
    Cui Shan (Wuji's father)
    *Vincent Zhao- I liked him in 2002's book and sword with Esther!
    YangXiao (Right hand of the Ming Sect):
    *Vincent Jiao- charming and debonair and slightly sinister suit him to a T!
    Wudang Da Di zi (Zhang San Feng's first disciple):
    *Kenny Ho
    Qing Shu (son of Zhang San Feng's first disciple):
    *CuiPeng (cute and cool with a good wuxia look, but also doing scheming and sinister with equal ease! I was more impressed with his Wuhua in Chu Liu Xiang than I was with Chu Liu Xiang himself! )
    Fan Yao (Left hand of the Ming Sect)
    *Kingone (Another CLX transplant I'd like to see- also super cool in wuxia garb.... though he might look a little young for the role.)

  20. #380
    Senior Member loislane's Avatar
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    Vincent Jiao as Yang Xiao would be PERFECT! And yeah, Yang Mi suits Xiao Zhao the best. I really want Xu Qing to be Yin Susu, has been my wish since I watched XAJH.

    Can't imagine who'd be perfect for Zhao Min now, since I really liked Alyssa Chia's portrayal.

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