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Thread: Heaven Sword and Dragon Saber-2008

  1. #1601
    Senior Member vuongngocyen's Avatar
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    Kitty Lai is my favorite Zm too...I love all of her clothes these are so pretty and hair styles.

  2. #1602
    Senior Member TiffTiff's Avatar
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    Hi yanfeng, welcome back! Are you also vivi_g???

    I like HSDS and Ady, so I'm excited all the way that she got her role as ZM so I want to find as many pix as possible. I bookmarks all of the blogs Sunny gave, and come back and check on it when I have time. If there is update, I'll post the link, but I'm not Chinese, so I save the translation for Sunny or other friends in here

    Kitty Lai will always be my favorite ZM b/c I grew up watching HSDS. I thought the 1986 had good fighting scenes too, not so much graphic, more on acting and chemistry. I likes Sheren Tang's ZZR the best, but I like GYY's outfits too.
    I hope Ady can bring back the ZM in the novel, being smart, mean, ruthless, cunning, sophisticated and tricky like Kitty, Sharla and Gigi.

    Some of my favorite scenes from HSDS 86 included the part yanfeng had listed, when ZM asked ZWJ to call her "older sister Min" so she will save ZZR from being picked on her fellow Emei people. Another part is when ZM & ZWJ was on the boat, and after she bited ZWJ hand, she was cleaning his hand. She was saying something about beware of the Chen Huo Liang guy, and ZWJ said he don't have to be aware of her, b/c he trust her, then ZM said : "really, I'm putting poison on your hand and you don't have a clue" . I thought that was so funny and cute
    The other part when ZM & ZWJ was eavesdropping on the Beggar Clan, they were sitting in a tight space and Kitty's & Tony's face touched each other, I thought that was so romantic. The chemistry that they had was undeniable.
    There were other parts too, I'll remember it soon

    Hey sunny, it seem like they don't have any filming on the weekend, huh?

  3. #1603
    Member vivy17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flamer View Post
    Debate over anything? As in regarding to showbiz or ANYTHING in general? I'll assume its the first one. You can debate your own views of the best actress for a role but you can hardly offer EVIDENCE for it. As your view of EVIDENCE is different to others'. You may think an actress' performance in a scene is great and use it as a proof that she did a better job, but another person may think she did a terrible job there. Its all subjective and you literally cannot PROVE one actress is better than another in a role. You can suggest that your preferred actress is better but its hardly considered a PROOF. Your call for clear cut PROOF is impossible. You will also notice that you have no provided any of that CONCRETE PROOF you called for. Hence notice that it is impossible to provide.
    I don't understand how your input can be considered objective and not subjective since you are a proclaimed Alyssa fan and you constantly critize my post and not other Alyssa fans. You keep restating the fact that I have not provided any conrete evidence, but did you fail to notice that it was not me who demanded for a list of evidence in the first place? I came in here to simply place my view on what I think of the past ZM and not to prove anything. I think you ran off with the idea that I was trying to prove something because the OTHER Alyssa fan kept pestering me to list reasons as to why I think Alyssa screwed up this role. I defended my view as to why I think Alyssa seriously messed up the role as demanded, and yet the person who challenged me in the first place never held up their end of the bargain. I have yet to hear anything as to why Alyssa is a decent ZM.

    Also, I think you opinion of "evidence" and "proof" is bit to literal and not realistic. People can provide evidence and proof objectively and not always subjectively. For example, saying that "Alyssa is the best ZM ever and ever because she simply is and because I say so" is a form of subjective opinion that is followed by subjective reasoning. The person who stated this is subjectively "proving" that Alyssa is the best simply because he/she says so.

    You can compare actress and do so objectively if you can come up with valid reasons. For example, if I were to compare Alyssa and the past ZM and claim that Alyssa is the worse one with VALID reasons that are NOT subjective (I can pull up text from the novel, I can provide videos comparing the differences between the way the actresses portrayed the role, I can pull up reviews by reliable critics regarding the actresses and the role of ZM etc.. etc..) then it is still considered evidence.

    Look, we can argue this until next year and since we are both stubborn we will not get anywhere. Bottom line is that we agree to disagree. You can disagree with me all you want, but I just want to remind you that I did not start this whole debate and I did not conjure up a list of reasons just because I felt like harassing Alyssa and her fans. Don't accuse.
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  4. #1604
    Senior Member flamer's Avatar
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    Wait, this is a seperate discussion with yours and wu's discussion. Why bring him into it? Just stay focused.

    My point was to both wu and you. That one cannot find EVIDENCE and concrete PROOF that one actress is better over another.

    P.S As I have more time now, I'll elaborate on the "evidence" you are talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by vivy17 View Post
    You can compare actress and do so objectively if you can come up with valid reasons. For example, if I were to compare Alyssa and the past ZM and claim that Alyssa is the worse one with VALID reasons that are NOT subjective (I can pull up text from the novel, I can provide videos comparing the differences between the way the actresses portrayed the role, I can pull up reviews by reliable critics regarding the actresses and the role of ZM etc.. etc..) then it is still considered evidence.
    It is in fact not realistic to use "evidence" and "proof" to PROVE an actress better than another. Your example of...

    "I can pull up text from the novel, I can provide videos comparing the differences between the way the actresses portrayed the role, I can pull up reviews by reliable critics regarding the actresses and the role of ZM etc.. etc.."

    is of no way objective. Different actresses portray the same scenes from the novel differently but who are we to CONCLUDE one did a better job? In fact, who is anyone to conclude such a thing? Even the most critically acclaimed film or show has its haters but are they any less valuable comments as "reliable critics"? There will always be critics who dislike a film, no matter how acclaimed it is. But no, lets just listen to "reliable critics", who almost definitely gave a SUBJECTIVE view, just as every other viewer.

    It is easy for you or wu to come up with a list of things you believe Alyssa did well/bad in the series, according to the novel. But whats the point of that? You will just each stare at the other's list and think "ok... now what? Am I convinced?" Probably not, because the list itself, even according to the novel, is hugely subjective. A scene that you might have particularly hated might be loved by another person, hence that part of the list is not valid for said person. But wait, it is valid for you. Hence you see the large amount of subjectivity in the so-called list of "evidence".
    Last edited by flamer; 12-03-08 at 01:49 AM.

  5. #1605
    Senior Member babiadorkable's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar View Post
    Sheren for me
    ohh, I haven't seen Sheren, don't think I was born yet. heheh

    Quote Originally Posted by sunnysnow View Post
    GYY portrayed the most likable ZZR imo
    I prefer GYY's ZZR too between hers and Charmaine's

    Zhu-er's new outfit:
    http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_4b51a7980100bgjj.html
    I prefer her other blue costume though this hairstyle doesn't look as silly/clownish as the previous one.
    too bad they haven't removed that flower...
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  6. #1606
    Member vivy17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flamer View Post
    Wait, this is a seperate discussion with yours and wu's discussion. Why bring him into it? Just stay focused.

    My point was to both wu and you. That one cannot find EVIDENCE and concrete PROOF that one actress is better over another.

    P.S As I have more time now, I'll elaborate on the "evidence" you are talking about.



    It is in fact not realistic to use "evidence" and "proof" to PROVE an actress better than another. Your example of...

    "I can pull up text from the novel, I can provide videos comparing the differences between the way the actresses portrayed the role, I can pull up reviews by reliable critics regarding the actresses and the role of ZM etc.. etc.."

    is of no way objective. Different actresses portray the same scenes from the novel differently but who are we to CONCLUDE one did a better job? In fact, who is anyone to conclude such a thing? Even the most critically acclaimed film or show has its haters but are they any less valuable comments as "reliable critics"? There will always be critics who dislike a film, no matter how acclaimed it is. But no, lets just listen to "reliable critics", who almost definitely gave a SUBJECTIVE view, just as every other viewer.

    It is easy for you or wu to come up with a list of things you believe Alyssa did well/bad in the series, according to the novel. But whats the point of that? You will just each stare at the other's list and think "ok... now what? Am I convinced?" Probably not, because the list itself, even according to the novel, is hugely subjective. A scene that you might have particularly hated might be loved by another person, hence that part of the list is not valid for said person. But wait, it is valid for you. Hence you see the large amount of subjectivity in the so-called list of "evidence".
    It is nearly impossible to discuss or compare actresses if in your mind, everything and everyone is seperated into 2 narrow categories of objective or subjective. I understand that everybody has their own opinions about everything and no one will ever agree with everyone about everything, but for goodness sake, the point of a forum is for people to express their individual opinions, criticize, and compare. I don't understand how you can push the subjective point around and still join a forum since almost everyone here according to you fall into that unreliable category.

    You asked me what is the point of me or that person Wu to argue over who is better as ZM, but let me remind you for the 100th time that my intention was not to argue over this but to merely express my view of the different actresses portraying ZM over the years. it just happens that I do not like the way Alyssa portrayed the role of ZM and Wu does.

    You aske me why I brought Wu into the conversation, and let me just remind you AGAIN, that throughout this entire discussion, even though you claim to aim the attacks at the both of us, you darn well know that your attacks are just directed towards me. When you have an avatar of Alyssa, how can I think of your attacks as objective and not bias? How can I not feel as though you mutually take the side of your fellow Alyssa follower (and yes, you do because you never once mentioned Wu in the conversation until I mentioned it.) The bottom line is that no matter how hard you try to tell me that I cannot prove my point regarding this topic, the more I think it is ridiculous for someone to have such strong opinions toward the whole point of joining a discussion forum and yet is still an active member.
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  7. #1607
    Senior Member Sugar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babiadorkable View Post
    ohh, I haven't seen Sheren, don't think I was born yet. heheh


    ..

    plftt, u know, when that was made.. i wasn't even born either
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  8. #1608
    Senior Member yanfeng's Avatar
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    Hi Tifftiff,

    Thanks, but afraid Yanfeng is the only name I post under here- do I sound like vivi_g?

    I vividly recall those parts you mentioned too! And would add the part after ZM breaks up ZWJ and ZZR's wedding in the '86 version, at the old temple, when Tony's ZWJ jokingly threatens to also come break up ZM's wedding (in revenge) and ends up saying "I wonder who the person is who has accumulated enough good karma to have the good fortune to marry you." and Kitty says "Well, its not to late to start doing good deeds now." And then they share a Moment.

    Quite a few other magic moments in that series too... and alas for me I was already born when they made that series!

  9. #1609
    Senior Member flamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vivy17 View Post
    It is nearly impossible to discuss or compare actresses if in your mind, everything and everyone is seperated into 2 narrow categories of objective or subjective. I understand that everybody has their own opinions about everything and no one will ever agree with everyone about everything, but for goodness sake, the point of a forum is for people to express their individual opinions, criticize, and compare. I don't understand how you can push the subjective point around and still join a forum since almost everyone here according to you fall into that unreliable category.

    You asked me what is the point of me or that person Wu to argue over who is better as ZM, but let me remind you for the 100th time that my intention was not to argue over this but to merely express my view of the different actresses portraying ZM over the years. it just happens that I do not like the way Alyssa portrayed the role of ZM and Wu does.

    You aske me why I brought Wu into the conversation, and let me just remind you AGAIN, that throughout this entire discussion, even though you claim to aim the attacks at the both of us, you darn well know that your attacks are just directed towards me. When you have an avatar of Alyssa, how can I think of your attacks as objective and not bias? How can I not feel as though you mutually take the side of your fellow Alyssa follower (and yes, you do because you never once mentioned Wu in the conversation until I mentioned it.) The bottom line is that no matter how hard you try to tell me that I cannot prove my point regarding this topic, the more I think it is ridiculous for someone to have such strong opinions toward the whole point of joining a discussion forum and yet is still an active member.
    Firstly, take a chill pill, this is uncalled-for animosity and may damage health. There you go. I'll be back to reply after I take a swim.

    Here goes...

    Firstly, why are you disregarding my posts and valid points just because I'm an Alyssa's fan? Especially when almost all my points are not regarding the merit of Alyssa as Zhao Min, but rather that one cannot PROVE an actress over another. You are just putting words in my mouth that I attempt to help "fellow fans", and I am bewildered.

    Now, you can express your OPINIONS, but use them as PROOF? I don't see how. This is going out to you and wu and any other person who thinks they can PROVE an actress better than another. You can express your subjective OPINIONS in the forum but one cannot pass them off as PROOF.
    Last edited by flamer; 12-03-08 at 08:14 AM.

  10. #1610
    Senior Member MysticDust's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flamer View Post
    Firstly, take a chill pill, this is uncalled-for animosity and may damage health. There you go. I'll be back to reply after I take a swim.

    Here goes...

    Firstly, why are you disregarding my posts and valid points just because I'm an Alyssa's fan? Especially when almost all my points are not regarding the merit of Alyssa as Zhao Min, but rather that one cannot PROVE an actress over another. You are just putting words in my mouth that I attempt to help "fellow fans", and I am bewildered.

    Now, you can express your OPINIONS, but use them as PROOF? I don't see how. This is going out to you and wu and any other person who thinks they can PROVE an actress better than another. You can express your subjective OPINIONS in the forum but one cannot pass them off as PROOF.
    I didn't want to get myself mixed in this discussion, but I cannot help disagreeing with your comment. I do agree that subjectivity is prevailing in forum discussions and criticism, for the most part. However, I think when a movie/drama is attempting to portray a book, one should regard the book as the predominant marker of accurancy and "good" portrayal (unless the producer/director explicitly state: "our version is not meant to be like the book"). Therefore, if an actress is portraying a character meant to be serious in a certain scene and ended up being comical, I think that's enough proof that her portrayal was not good.

    However, whether people like that portrayal or not depends on the person.
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  11. #1611
    Senior Member yanfeng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babiadorkable View Post

    too bad they haven't removed that flower...
    Though she does look so much more charming and less silly I'm sold even with the flower!

    BTW, Liu Jing looks a LOT better in her newest hairdo as well- improvements all around!

  12. #1612
    Member vivy17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flamer View Post
    Firstly, take a chill pill, this is uncalled-for animosity and may damage health. There you go. I'll be back to reply after I take a swim.

    Here goes...

    Firstly, why are you disregarding my posts and valid points just because I'm an Alyssa's fan? Especially when almost all my points are not regarding the merit of Alyssa as Zhao Min, but rather that one cannot PROVE an actress over another. You are just putting words in my mouth that I attempt to help "fellow fans", and I am bewildered.

    Now, you can express your OPINIONS, but use them as PROOF? I don't see how. This is going out to you and wu and any other person who thinks they can PROVE an actress better than another. You can express your subjective OPINIONS in the forum but one cannot pass them off as PROOF.
    Why do you assume that people who disagree with you need to take a chill pill? I don't think your argument is serious enough to actually make me hurt myself. I think perhaps you take yourself too seriously and are regarding yourself a bit too highly.

    No matter how much you try to argue this, I am still going to disagree with you that people can still attempt to prove whether or not actors/actresses are accurately portraying the roles. You may think that this is all subjective, but I think that one can distinguish between subjective and objective without bringing the literally defintion of proofs to the table.

    once again, this forum is for fun and entertainment, you don't have to get yourself all high and mighty with your "proof" reasonings.

    By the way, no one actually used the word PROOF. All we asked of each other was to list our reasons and explain why we think the way we do. I think you are the only one who nosied his or herself into the conversation with all the proof accusations. Perhaps, the chill pill should be prescribed to you my dear. Just go watch Alyssa cook in HSDS and think to yourself how great she is instead of worrying about all this "proof" business.
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  13. #1613
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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticDust View Post
    I didn't want to get myself mixed in this discussion, but I cannot help disagreeing with your comment. I do agree that subjectivity is prevailing in forum discussions and criticism, for the most part. However, I think when a movie/drama is attempting to portray a book, one should regard the book as the predominant marker of accurancy and "good" portrayal (unless the producer/director explicitly state: "our version is not meant to be like the book"). Therefore, if an actress is portraying a character meant to be serious in a certain scene and ended up being comical, I think that's enough proof that her portrayal was not good.

    However, whether people like that portrayal or not depends on the person.
    Ditto. I think the same way you do too, but some people just don't want to hear it.
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  14. #1614
    Senior Member yanfeng's Avatar
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    Thought I'd share this sniplet- an article from last week about Xiao Zhao for fans of the character!

    http://gb.cri.cn/19720/2008/11/27/3465s2340549.htm

    HZY, actress for Xiao Zhao, here says "XZ isn't a maid!"

    I think the point is that people assume XZ is a meek/weak character becuase she spends much of the novel following ZWJ around and is his 'servant girl'. Apparently a lady even asked her "Why are you always playing maids?" (Referring to her earlier role as Shuang-er in DOMD)

    Here she defends the character XZ as having her own mind, but only following ZWJ around and waiting on him because of how much she loves him- and that XZ would do this only for ZWJ and no one else.

  15. #1615
    Senior Member TiffTiff's Avatar
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    Thank you for the article, yanfeng

    I wish there would be some more updates on filming. I've been re-visiting most the blogs I know and there isn't anything new

    Vivy17, I gave up debating over Alyssa's ZM after 2 responses because I've realized flamer and Wu couldn't provide any specific examples of why and how Alyssa has the characteristics ZM like the one described in the novel (From previous versions, Liza, Kitty, Sharla, Gigi all showed the ZM that were: mean, cruel, powerful, tricky, cunning, intelligent, naughty...) Alyssa took ZM to a different route. I guess I'll leave the childish, cartoonish, comic, silly acting to fans that like it . It's really hard to talk to a die-hard fans, so let's have a drink and move on ok, baby?

  16. #1616
    Senior Member yanfeng's Avatar
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    This is also a cute, albeit super-short, article

    http://ent.sina.com.cn/v/m/2008-12-02/01292274942.shtml

    This has pictures that are already seen on this forum, but the reporter seems very impressed by Ady and DC- reports that Ady very expressively portrays ZM's elegance and intelligence, and that her scenes with DC are beautiful enough to make one feel 如痴如醉 ("as if dazed, as if drunk"- quite a pretty phrase to say how much the reporter was into Ady and DC's acting!)

  17. #1617
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    Thank you yanfeng for the translation. The reporter sure know to choose some of the most beautiful pictures to express his points.

    Sunny, I've got some clips for you, clips of Kitty in Mongolian clothes, sorry, the clips are in Vietnamese again

    1) Scene where she was about to put mark on ZZR's face

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=356zM...eature=related

    2) Another scene where she has a purple flower on her head, scene w/ Tony ZWJ
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PC6Sf...eature=related

    I hope Ady will have pretty tribal clothes.

  18. #1618
    Senior Member yanfeng's Avatar
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    Here's one more cute article:
    http://ent.sina.com.cn/v/m/2008-12-02/18202276228.shtml

    Actor for Zhang Cui San talks about filming the scene where ZCS reunites with his Wudang 'family' after his 10 years of absence.

    Apparent it was bitterly cold, with the wind getting into clothes and his wound bothering him, so much that he could hardly open his mouth, much less smile or express how happy the occasion is for the character. But, in the end, because the scene was about brotherly love, and he thinks of the cast and crew as almost his brothers and sisters he found the scene heart-warming enough to keep his smile cozy & heart-felt!

  19. #1619
    Senior Member flamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vivy17 View Post
    Why do you assume that people who disagree with you need to take a chill pill? I don't think your argument is serious enough to actually make me hurt myself. I think perhaps you take yourself too seriously and are regarding yourself a bit too highly.
    Well clearly you are taking it too seriously. See below.

    you darn well know
    but for goodness sake
    Rather emotional language I would say.

    No matter how much you try to argue this, I am still going to disagree with you that people can still attempt to prove whether or not actors/actresses are accurately portraying the roles. You may think that this is all subjective, but I think that one can distinguish between subjective and objective without bringing the literally defintion of proofs to the table.

    once again, this forum is for fun and entertainment, you don't have to get yourself all high and mighty with your "proof" reasonings.
    See it from my point of view, no matter how much you try to argue this, you cannot hope to prove any actress better than another. How can you make an objective judgement but not require literal proof? Think about court judgement as they try to be as objective as possible. To try to make an objective call, literal proof is essential no? The forum is for fun but you and others are creating a tense environment with calls for PROOF and EVIDENCE that an actress is better than another. Come on guys, what proof?

    By the way, no one actually used the word PROOF. All we asked of each other was to list our reasons and explain why we think the way we do. I think you are the only one who nosied his or herself into the conversation with all the proof accusations. Perhaps, the chill pill should be prescribed to you my dear. Just go watch Alyssa cook in HSDS and think to yourself how great she is instead of worrying about all this "proof" business.
    If you don't agree that one can find "evidence," then how do you suggest for people to debate over ANYTHING?
    If you cannot think of reasons as to why you think Alyssa makes a good ZM, then I'll just assume that you are a hardcore fan who is just willing to blindedly defend your star.
    How about you give me some reasons as to why you think she is the best?
    Need I say more about your love for evidence? If you only require a "list of reasons", then as I said before, they are meaningless.

    I'll post it again.

    It is easy for you or wu to come up with a list of things you believe Alyssa did well/bad in the series, according to the novel. But whats the point of that? You will just each stare at the other's list and think "ok... now what? Am I convinced?" Probably not, because the list itself, even according to the novel, is hugely subjective. A scene that you might have particularly hated might be loved by another person, hence that part of the list is not valid for said person. But wait, it is valid for you. Hence you see the large amount of subjectivity in the so-called list of "evidence".

  20. #1620
    Senior Member flamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticDust View Post
    I didn't want to get myself mixed in this discussion, but I cannot help disagreeing with your comment. I do agree that subjectivity is prevailing in forum discussions and criticism, for the most part. However, I think when a movie/drama is attempting to portray a book, one should regard the book as the predominant marker of accurancy and "good" portrayal (unless the producer/director explicitly state: "our version is not meant to be like the book"). Therefore, if an actress is portraying a character meant to be serious in a certain scene and ended up being comical, I think that's enough proof that her portrayal was not good.

    However, whether people like that portrayal or not depends on the person.
    Firstly, the book, and not previous versions should be the marker. Done

    "Therefore, if an actress is portraying a character meant to be serious in a certain scene and ended up being comical, I think that's enough proof that her portrayal was not good."

    There are 2 sides to this.

    1) Serious, comical, cruel, unless an actress gave an immensly obvious stray from these subjective appearences, repeatedly, then there will be cause to say she may not have done that well of a job according to the novel. Now lets name some? But what about scenes not from the novel? Interesting? Moving on to #2.

    2) If there is a major stray from the novel's descriptions, who's fault is it? The actress' or the director's or the script etc. Hence what one might want to say is for example, "ok I tell you what, the director of HSDS #### is so much worse than HSDS #### because he changed the plot and filming so much, its almost not HSDS anymore."

    Overall what I'm trying to say is that one cannot pin-point and make a claim of objectivity with PROOF that one actress is better than another.

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