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Thread: Why didn't Ding Chun Chou use his strengths when fighting Kiu Fung at Shaolin?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Why didn't Ding Chun Chou use his strengths when fighting Kiu Fung at Shaolin?

    Ding Chun Chou was by no means a weak fighter in terms of conventional fist and kicking martial arts, but his *real* strengths...the ones that inspired the fear of his enemies...were his expert use of poisons and his Fa Gung Dai Fat (Diffusion Force Technique).

    During the most difficult fight of Ding's life, the struggle against Kiu Fung at Shaolin Temple, Ding strangely used neither poison nor Diffusion Force Technique against his powerful Khitan foeman. He tried to match Kiu Fung at Kiu's own strength (i.e. straightfoward hand-to-hand combat). Even though Mo Yung F'uk and Yau Tan Tze were there to take most of the heat off of Ding, it's really surprising that Ding didn't pull out the poison or the Diffusion Force against this most dangerous and fearsome of enemies.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    In DGSD, if you have abundant internal energy, you become immune to most poison. After Xuzhu absorbed Wuyazi's internal energy, he became immune to Ding Chunqiu's poison.

    Earlier, when one of Ding's disciples tried to poison Xiao Feng, Xiao simply generated some internal energy to the body area poisoned, and the poison had no affect. What Xiao Feng displayed was manually protecting yourself against poison, while Xuzhu seemed to be automatically protected. Nevertheless, Ding probably knew his poison would be useless against someone 4-5 times better.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    What happened in the earlier episode when Ah Zi was supposed to be tortured by Ding Chunqiu's disciple, but Xiao Feng somehow turned the tables? The details of the incident aren't really clear in DGSD 2003, which is all I know of that other than the early chapters and bits and pieces of other translations.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pannonian View Post
    What happened in the earlier episode when Ah Zi was supposed to be tortured by Ding Chunqiu's disciple, but Xiao Feng somehow turned the tables? The details of the incident aren't really clear in DGSD 2003, which is all I know of that other than the early chapters and bits and pieces of other translations.
    The disciple grabbed Xiao Feng's wrist to poison him. Xiao Feng generated some internal energy and was immune to poison. Xiao Feng injected his internal energy into the disciple and took full control of his life (a la Zhang Sanfeng to Xuanming Elder). Disciple attacks but Xiao Feng redirects the attack back to disciple. Disciple gets angry and tries to inject poison into Xiao Feng by internal energy, but it's repelled by Xiao Feng's great internal energy and gushes back into disciple's every organ. Just fractions of a second before the poison destroys disciple's heart, Xiao Feng releases to save disciple's life.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    The disciple grabbed Xiao Feng's wrist to poison him. Xiao Feng generated some internal energy and was immune to poison. Xiao Feng injected his internal energy into the disciple and took full control of his life (a la Zhang Sanfeng to Xuanming Elder). Disciple attacks but Xiao Feng redirects the attack back to disciple. Disciple gets angry and tries to inject poison into Xiao Feng by internal energy, but it's repelled by Xiao Feng's great internal energy and gushes back into disciple's every organ. Just fractions of a second before the poison destroys disciple's heart, Xiao Feng releases to save disciple's life.
    In the series, there was some kind of special effect, and the disciple turned into a pile of bones. Also, the disciple was throwing some kind of fireballs around, which Xiao Feng redirected back into him, disintegrating him. Are you talking about that incident? If not, could you explain the incident in the series? I'd like to know what happened there, but unfortunately that bit isn't translated yet.

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    In DGSD, if you have abundant internal energy, you become immune to most poison. After Xuzhu absorbed Wuyazi's internal energy, he became immune to Ding Chunqiu's poison.

    Earlier, when one of Ding's disciples tried to poison Xiao Feng, Xiao simply generated some internal energy to the body area poisoned, and the poison had no affect. What Xiao Feng displayed was manually protecting yourself against poison, while Xuzhu seemed to be automatically protected. Nevertheless, Ding probably knew his poison would be useless against someone 4-5 times better.
    That bit is a bit unclear. After XF pushed Ding back with the triple palm, it was stated that Ding gathered his poisonous energies and readied to defend against the next attack (which did not come). Later when XF charged in, JY just conveniently neglected to mention the poison.

    I suppose if we put WYZ ~ XF, and XZ with WYZ's energy alone could resist Ding's poison, XF should be immune too. Not awfully clear though.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Anyway, in Jin Yong universe, I always think that poisons are mostly useless against people who are significant strong than you, at least that's what Jin Yong says. Just look at the stupid limitation of Xuanming Shenzhang: you can't use it against anyone stronger than you. What Jin Yong shows is another story though, like how they used, and even struck down, Zhang Wuji.

    But if we believe what Jin Yong says about Xuanming Shenzhang is true, then we can probably apply the same weakness to Ding Chunqiu.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    As for this:

    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    That bit is a bit unclear. After XF pushed Ding back with the triple palm, it was stated that Ding gathered his poisonous energies and readied to defend against the next attack (which did not come).
    The next attack would have been another LDA, so I don't really see how poison might help Ding. I see it as a desperate, but rather useless, attempt at saving one's a$$. Like how later Murong Fu wanted to match Xiao Feng with Dongzhuan Xingyi, but in fact he would be no match.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Anyway, in Jin Yong universe, I always think that poisons are mostly useless against people who are significant strong than you, at least that's what Jin Yong says. Just look at the stupid limitation of Xuanming Shenzhang: you can't use it against anyone stronger than you. What Jin Yong shows is another story though, like how they used, and even struck down, Zhang Wuji.
    Poisons are chemical agents. Each of them will have its different set of effects on the human physiology, but what differs is the delivery system. If the poison is delivered by inner power transfer, then yeah, I could see how the poison user would have a problem if his inner power is less than that of his target. If it's delivered through a needle, a gas, or better yet, through the pores of the skin, I don't see how all the inner power in the world could protect the target from the poison.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Anyway, in Jin Yong universe, I always think that poisons are mostly useless against people who are significant strong than you
    But Ah Zi/Liao King managed to poison Xiao Feng. I would say it still depends on the poison. The most lowly skilled person can still poison Greats with decent poisons.

    I doubt Xiao Feng has the same quality/quantity of internal energy as WYZ. Its just his awesome external skills.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
    Poisons are chemical agents. Each of them will have its different set of effects on the human physiology, but what differs is the delivery system. If the poison is delivered by inner power transfer, then yeah, I could see how the poison user would have a problem if his inner power is less than that of his target. If it's delivered through a needle, a gas, or better yet, through the pores of the skin, I don't see how all the inner power in the world could protect the target from the poison.
    Zhang Wuji was capable of using his powerful internal energy to expel poison from his body. Basically, martial artists who are powerful enough have some limited degree of control over their physiology.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    Zhang Wuji was capable of using his powerful internal energy to expel poison from his body. Basically, martial artists who are powerful enough have some limited degree of control over their physiology.
    It might depend on the potency of the poison. For example, I don't see anybody, even the Janitor Monk, surviving the sort of snake poison that killed Yeung Hong. That stuff was so toxic that it began disintegrating Yeung Hong from the inside out immediately, and reduced him to bones within hours of exposure.

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    Depends on the poison I say. Some poisons specifically do things like seal off internal energy and would be tremendously effective.

    Just solidifies in my mind how OYF is a great poison user while DCQ is merely uses poison greatly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
    It might depend on the potency of the poison. For example, I don't see anybody, even the Janitor Monk, surviving the sort of snake poison that killed Yeung Hong. That stuff was so toxic that it began disintegrating Yeung Hong from the inside out immediately, and reduced him to bones within hours of exposure.
    That sounds like TVB; the poison that killed Yang Kang was the same exact thing as Ouyang Feng used against sharks; it turned the blood in a person's veins to toxin as well, but there's no disintegration whatsoever.

    Zhu Cong actually seemed to last a number of days with the poison, for that matter...hm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    That sounds like TVB
    No, TVB let Yeung Hong last all night. He was still alive when Gwok Jing found him the next morning, and was able to stay alive long enough for a sentimental final farewell with Muk Lim Chi.

    I've heard that quick disintegration by the poison was how Yeung Hong met his demise. By the time Gwok Jing arrived the next morning, only bones were left, and even the crows that had dined on Yeung Hong's decaying flesh were poisoned.


    Zhu Cong actually seemed to last a number of days with the poison, for that matter...hm.
    Nam Hei Yan inexplicably stayed alive for weeks.

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    Sorry, it was Nan Xiren, not Zhu Cong, got the names mixed up.

    Either way though, I'm not sure where the disintegration thing comes from, but it definitely wasn't part of the shark poison which hit Yang Kang. He died in a matter of minutes, and that was that; later crows came to feast on his corpse, and they died as well.
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    I think no poison ever to grace the JY canon can harm Sweeper Monk. Really.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
    No, TVB let Yeung Hong last all night. He was still alive when Gwok Jing found him the next morning, and was able to stay alive long enough for a sentimental final farewell with Muk Lim Chi.

    I've heard that quick disintegration by the poison was how Yeung Hong met his demise. By the time Gwok Jing arrived the next morning, only bones were left, and even the crows that had dined on Yeung Hong's decaying flesh were poisoned.
    There was no reunion with Mu Nianci, as Yang Kang died almost immediately, and probably before Ouyang Feng's dispute with Ke Zhen E that resulted in Huang Rong going away with him. The body was left lying there, the crows around the temple ate it, until they too died of the poison and littered the floor. After Guo Jing bumped into Ke Zhen E and heard the news about Huang Rong, he went to the temple and buried the remains. Presumably he told Qiu Chuji about Yang Kang's death at some point, and Qiu Chuji added his own epitaph for Yang Kang that later infuriated Yang Guo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pannonian View Post
    There was no reunion with Mu Nianci, as Yang Kang died almost immediately, and probably before Ouyang Feng's dispute with Ke Zhen E that resulted in Huang Rong going away with him. The body was left lying there, the crows around the temple ate it, until they too died of the poison and littered the floor. After Guo Jing bumped into Ke Zhen E and heard the news about Huang Rong, he went to the temple and buried the remains. Presumably he told Qiu Chuji about Yang Kang's death at some point, and Qiu Chuji added his own epitaph for Yang Kang that later infuriated Yang Guo.
    What pannonian said; also, I can confirm that it was indeed before Ouyang Feng's 'dispute' with Ke Zhen'E.
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