Generally, won't weapon fighters beat non-weapon fighters?

[Ghaleon]

Generally speaking, won't weapon fighters beat non-weapon fighters?

Common sense would dictate that a person with a weapon would beat a person without a weapon assuming that both of those people are at similar levels in power.

So wouldn't that make Yang Guo with his Iron Sword and Ling Wu Chong with his Dugu 9 Swords formidable opponents against palm-based fighters such as Cheung Mo Gei, Kiu Fong and Guo Jing? Or am I missing something here? If that's the case, why didn't YG use his HIS all the time?

Also, no matter how much inner energy you have, wouldn't a slash by a blade cut through your skin and leave a wound???

I can understand that a weakling with a weapon may lose miserably against a weapon-less fighter of much higher inner power. But if two people are matched in inner power, wouldn't the one with a weapon have a huge advantage?

Maybe I'm reading/watching too many Samurai novels and series where a single cut of the blade is fatal (in fact, a sword fight is often decided in only one strike ). With that in mind, wouldn't everyone in wuxia be carrying a weapon just in case they meet someone of equal power?

BTW, Luk Siu Fong can catch Sai Mun Chiu Suet's blade but not everyone has this special ability. It still seems having a weapon is advantageous.

This issue has bugged me for a while!

[PJ]

Not always. If the fighters are REALLY good, they might never get near 5 feet of each other--LDA/S all the way--so weapon or not might be a moot point.

But in general yes, weapon == advantage.

[Ren Ying Ying]

Not necessaily. At high levels, a finger can be lethal. Thus, just being touched is dangous enough, so the sharp edge of the weapon isn't necessarily more advantagous. The only possible advantage is length for a weapon. However, as we all know, longer weapon/range doesn't always translate to advantage.

[kyss of the sword]

for low level fighters, high level fighters have reached a level where whether you use a weapon or not there is little difference as they have sophistcated techniques to counter the moves.

[CC]

Not necessaily. At high levels, a finger can be lethal. Thus, just being touched is dangous enough, so the sharp edge of the weapon isn't necessarily more advantagous. The only possible advantage is length for a weapon. However, as we all know, longer weapon/range doesn't always translate to advantage.

Yes but at equivalent inner power and skill levels, a touch might not cause significant injury while a sharp blade would still cut.

And look at JMZ and his dagger vs Xu Zhu.

And look at Zuo vs Yue. If Yue had not used a needle in the palm, Zuo would not have been injured when they met palms.

This whole no-weapon = weapon at high levels is just a plot device necessary for wuxia plots.

[PJ]

This whole no-weapon = weapon at high levels is just a plot device necessary for wuxia plots.

As is everything else!

[Ghaleon]

BTW, any comments on the Qi-Overcoming stance of the Dugu 9 Swords in a weapon vs non-weapon fight?

for low level fighters, high level fighters have reached a level where whether you use a weapon or not there is little difference as they have sophistcated techniques to counter the moves.

But what if BOTH of the fighters are high level, wouldn't the one with a weapon have a huge advantange? Every advantage counts big time in a close duel, correct?

Doesn't the sharp metal of a blade still cut through the skin no matter how much inner power is drenched into the skin?

A high level fighter may have counter-moves to counter a weapon, but won't a high level sword fighter (like those Sword Gods in GL's novels) have moves to counter those counter-moves?

On a side note, is Hung 7 Gong more formidable with Hong Long 18 palms or with Beat Dog Stick?

This whole no-weapon = weapon at high levels is just a plot device necessary for wuxia plots.

I totally agree, it is definitely a plot device. I never been totally satisfied as to the reasons why no-weapon = weapon at high levels. It defies common sense.

[PJ]

I never been totally satisfied as to the reasons why no-weapon = weapon at high levels. It defies common sense.

Like I said before, if you're far away from your opponent, then you have little to no opportunity to use your weapon, thus weapon or not makes no difference.

If you pay attention to when Jin Yong made his famous remark about weapon = no weapon, then you'll see that it was indeed in the context of Long Distance Attacks:

LOCH chapter 40:

高手比武，手上有无兵刃相差其实不多，洪七公将降龙十八掌使将开来，掌风扫到一丈开外，郭靖虽有铁箫，又哪 能近身还击？

Translation: In an exchange of stances between high level experts, whether or not they have a weapon does not make much difference. When Hong Qigong unleashed XL18Z with palm wind cutting into the air 10+ feet away, how can Guo Jing with his iron flute even get near Hong?

Thus, when Jin Yong made the remark that weapon = no weapon, he was imagining a case where folks have enough internal energy to keep their opponent at bay several feet away, eliminating the effectiveness of weapons.

[Ren Ying Ying]

Yes but at equivalent inner power and skill levels, a touch might not cause significant injury while a sharp blade would still cut.

And look at JMZ and his dagger vs Xu Zhu.

And look at Zuo vs Yue. If Yue had not used a needle in the palm, Zuo would not have been injured when they met palms.

This whole no-weapon = weapon at high levels is just a plot device necessary for wuxia plots.

If the fighters are at high levels, they should KNOW how to treat weapons and non-weapons differently. Zuo may have chosen to palm clash with Yue in the situtation, but if he knew that Yue had a needle in his hand, he would most definitely not put his palm in the same position. By high level, i'm assuming we're including "battle smartness".

at equivalent inner power levels, one can skill be hurt upon the touch/attack--unless one can actively drive equal or more amounts of inner power to that area to counter the power (ie in palm clashes). It has been said that when highly skilled fighters battle, one wrong move can determine life or death. As such, one missed block (weapon, hand, feet, etc) can be costly.

[tape]

Something like XLN's gloves should be sought after treasures. There is no disadvantage to them whatsoever, takes half a second to put on, and allows you to be more resistant I'd imagine even to qi attacks, though minute maybe. Better yet...add some spikes on it.

[flamer]

For weaker fighters, I think weapons count for a lot more.

[Dimeron]

At great level, if one lands a hit, regardless weapons are involved or not, the opponent will pretty much end up dead or heavily wounded, and as such, weapons are not that great of advantage.

XZ fights do not count, since XZ is someone who has the inner power and techniques of a great but skill and fighting experience of a low level fighter for most of the novel.

However, I imagine if bunch of low level fighters or soldiers want to zerg a great and take him/her down with sheer numbers, then lots of weapon users are probably the best way to do it.

[Ghaleon]

Like I said before, if you're far away from your opponent, then you have little to no opportunity to use your weapon, thus weapon or not makes no difference.

If you pay attention to when Jin Yong made his famous remark about weapon = no weapon, then you'll see that it was indeed in the context of Long Distance Attacks:

LOCH chapter 40:

高手比武，手上有无兵刃相差其实不多，洪七公将降龙十八掌使将开来，掌风扫到一丈开外，郭靖虽有铁箫，又哪 能近身还击？

Translation: In an exchange of stances between high level experts, whether or not they have a weapon does not make much difference. When Hong Qigong unleashed XL18Z with palm wind cutting into the air 10+ feet away, how can Guo Jing with his iron flute even get near Hong?

Thus, when Jin Yong made the remark that weapon = no weapon, he was imagining a case where folks have enough internal energy to keep their opponent at bay several feet away, eliminating the effectiveness of weapons.

Thanks, I guess that makes sense for long distance fights with lots of inner energy.

Kind of reminds me of Ryu and Ken just shooting fire balls at each other from a distance.

I guess weapons come into play when we get to the punches/kicks distance of fighting. Aren't most wuxia fights at this distance anyway? i.e. exchanging and parrying blows.

It has been said that when highly skilled fighters battle, one wrong move can determine life or death. As such, one missed block (weapon, hand, feet, etc) can be costly.

True, but parrying/blocking a punch is much easier than blocking a sharp blade. If you try to block/parry a blade, it'll cut you and leave a wound. So weapons still has an advantage in that aspect.

Look at Wing Chun Kungfu, a lot of it is focused on blocking and diverting palm and fist attacks. But if a sharp blade is coming at you extremely fast, you'd have to completely dodge it.

[Ren Ying Ying]

True, but parrying/blocking a punch is much easier than blocking a sharp blade. If you try to block/parry a blade, it'll cut you and leave a wound. So weapons still has an advantage in that aspect.

In the end, i think it comes down to the intelligence/experience of the fight. Ie, if you are going to block a sword, you wouldn't move your hand towards the sharp edges. Just like if you were blocking a punch, you wouldn't aim head on to the opponent's fist. All weapons have some sort of blunt edge. Some weapons don't even have sharp edges (ie. staff, whip, etc).

Look at Wing Chun Kungfu, a lot of it is focused on blocking and diverting palm and fist attacks. But if a sharp blade is coming at you extremely fast, you'd have to completely dodge it.

Fictional wuxia should hardly be compared to "real life"

[Ghaleon]

Fictional wuxia should hardly be compared to "real life"

Why not? There is still some raw kung-fu elements like punches, kicks, blocks, etc.

All this reminds me of a real-life internal (neija) martial arts called Xingyiquan that utilizes inner energy and Qi. It's a kicka$$ martial art that is also featured in the Tekken video games. Taking lessons on it.

(from wikipedia.org) Despite its hard, angular appearance, cultivating "soft" internal strength or qi is essential to achieving power in Xingyiquan. The goal of the xingyiquan exponent is to reach the opponent quickly and drive powerfully through them in a single burst — the analogy with spear fighting is useful here. This is achieved by coordinating one's body as a single unit and the intense focusing of one's qi.

I think Jin Yong has done lot of research on real-life internal (neija) and external martial arts, qi cultivation, chinese medicine, acupuncture, etc. So quite a few of the things mentioned in his novels has a real-life basis.

[Ren Ying Ying]

Why not? There is still some raw kung-fu elements like punches, kicks, blocks, etc.

All this reminds me of a real-life internal (neija) martial arts called Xingyiquan that utilizes inner energy and Qi. It's a kicka$$ martial art that is also featured in the Tekken video games. I"m currently taking lessons in it.

(from wikipedia.org) Despite its hard, angular appearance, cultivating "soft" internal strength or qi is essential to achieving power in Xingyiquan. The goal of the xingyiquan exponent is to reach the opponent quickly and drive powerfully through them in a single burst — the analogy with spear fighting is useful here. This is achieved by coordinating one's body as a single unit and the intense focusing of one's qi.

Not comparable because real life martial arts will never reach THAT level.

You bring in the example of Wing Chun, but the folks in the fictional novels are like modern day experts X1000 . I mean, even the weakest folks can easily jump a dozen feet into the air, and let's not get into the crazy things that come out of these people's hands...

[Ghaleon]

Not comparable because real life martial arts will never reach THAT level.

You bring in the example of Wing Chun, but the folks in the fictional novels are like modern day experts X1000 . I mean, even the weakest folks can easily jump a dozen feet into the air, and let's not get into the crazy things that come out of these people's hands...

Haha how do you know??? I seen some crazy feats performed by some esoteric taoists that would make you go You think Hing Gong is fictional?

ok i agree that no modern experts can touch JY's super-powered heroes. But what i'm trying to say is the basis for Jin Yong's qi cultivation, inner energy training, external martial arts, etc. does have a real basis in reality. It's part of chinese culture. But of course he fictionalized it and made it more supernatural.

Xingyiquan is probably the closest real-life counterpart to JY's superpowered martial arts (mixing the philosophy of inner energy or qi with hard external techniques).

[flamer]

Also to think of it, not many of Great level fighters have high calibre weapons skills. Arguably only H7G/OYF's Stick, HYS's Jade Flute Swordplay, ZWJ/Z3F's Taiji etc. Pretty much for the others, their main combat skills are not weapon based.

[ChronoReverse]

Everything else equal, the fighter with a weapon is stronger than the one without.

At low levels, the weapon exceeds the user's ability and thus a weapon makes all the difference.

At high levels, the master would not be dependent or limited by the weapon and thus the weapon is only an advantage when applicable but not a hindrance. Furthermore, at such high levels, the weapon itself and its technique doesn't even matter so much but that it can be used as an advantage.




In any case, even the supposed greatest form of weaponless fighting, sword chi, can be dispelled using regular bare-handed attacks (assuming the internal energy is on par). If the same attack is performed with a weapon infused with chi, the chi can be diffused but the blade will still be incoming.

[Ghaleon]

In any case, even the supposed greatest form of weaponless fighting, sword chi, can be dispelled using regular bare-handed attacks (assuming the internal energy is on par). If the same attack is performed with a weapon infused with chi, the chi can be diffused but the blade will still be incoming.

Yeah I definitely agree - the blade will still come hacking away.

The only thing I can think of is to use lots of inner energy to perform LDA attacks to keep the swordsman at a distance. But once within striking distance, the swordsman can just slice and dice away. But first, how does the swordsman deal with the incoming Qi attacks from a distance? Can the swordsman use his other hand to block the Qi attacks (while his other hand holds on to the sword)? Or the swordsman infuse his blade with Qi and use the blade itself to block the Qi attacks? That's why I'm curious how the Qi-overcoming stance of Dugu 9 swordplay works exactly.