What is the most profound, advanced martial art in DGSD?

[Ren Wo Xing]

They weren't attacking each other, Chrono. DY was repeatedly firing attacks against Jiumozhi, and Jiumozhi, in my impression, was totally defending. Duan Yu continuously launched one attack after another, and Jiumozhi seemed to be doing all he could just to weather the onslaught. He simply couldn't get any attacks on Duan Yu because Duan Yu was 'machinegunning' him so fast that all of his energy was directed towards defending himself.

[ChronoReverse]

Hrm, I guess it could be taken that DY was simply firing so fast that any flaw became no flaw. Still, DY's lucky that he didn't end a stroke a moment too soon which would've let an attack in. In the end, DY's randomness still produced great results. Unless JMZ was standing in place and just taking the strokes anyway.

[Ren Wo Xing]

That was my personal impression of how it went with all ten of fingers firing so rapidly. Jiumozhi felt he couldn't cope using his Blazing Sabre, so quickly jumped in for close-in combat (perhaps another potential weakness of 6MSJ?).

[Ken Cheng]

That was my personal impression of how it went with all ten of fingers firing so rapidly. Jiumozhi felt he couldn't cope using his Blazing Sabre, so quickly jumped in for close-in combat (perhaps another potential weakness of 6MSJ?).

Perhaps if you let the opponent get up close.

Then again, I don't see an innate disadvantage: it's no more a disadvantage than firing a pistol at point blank range.

[flamer]

Well, if you look at the stats.

Competent 72 Arts Users : Possibly Sweeper (got to Demi-God levels)

: XF (used it to acheive one of the highest internals at young age)


Competent 6MSJ Users : Duan Yu (learnt it because of freak encounters)


You can also say 6MSJ is crap because it is just as hard to master. After all, the Dali Monks don't seem superior to a Xuan monk.

I think it was mentioned several times that Duan Yu is not really a competent consistent user of 6MSJ.

[flamer]

In that fight, it said that DY was firing randomly.

Yet somehow JMZ was unable to even have a single counter saber chi blade get in between DY's 6MSJ (remember, JMZ can utilize at least 12 blades simultaneous blades to DY's absolute max of 10). Even if DY was faster than JMZ, it's inconceivable that nothing go through considering that this fought "for a while" using "countless chi streams".


Thus I can claim that DY was using erratic strikes that somehow closed all holes through which he could have been hit. If his strikes were random then it was because he was supremely lucky.

I don't think you can make that claim. Its still just what you think with no author support. Many things could've happened as Jinyong might've wanted to happen. eg look at CC and RWX's posts.

You seem to refuse to give 6MSJ its due credit in helping the complete novice Duan Yu against seasoned JMZ. You push it to luck and randomness when the passage clearly points out exquisiteness and ability of 6MSJ.

[ChronoReverse]

Huh? Even RWX thinks it's because DY rapid-fired 6MSJ. Where does it say it was the exquisiteness? Even the text says DY randomly fired his shots.

[CC]

I think it was mentioned several times that Duan Yu is not really a competent consistent user of 6MSJ.

Ahem, which leaves the number of competent users at ZERO.

And what was your point again?

They may be awesome, but the perquisite to learn it to full extent may be too high, hence its crap. .

[flamer]

Huh? Even RWX thinks it's because DY rapid-fired 6MSJ. Where does it say it was the exquisiteness? Even the text says DY randomly fired his shots.

Lets get our beloved text.

"After being provoked into striking out for the past few times, Duan Yu had the vague notion that it was necessary for one to first gather his internal energy, and then agitate it to strike out with a finger; only then could his internal strength and power be unleashed. But as to why this was the cause, he had no clue at all. He lightly struck out with his middle finger, once more shooting forth the ‘Zhongchong Sword’. In a blink of an eye, all of the techniques he had learned from the six manuscripts rushed to the front of his mind. All ten of his fingers struck out continuously, attacking here and there in an inexhaustible onslaught.

Jiumozhi was astounded, and hurriedly generated his internal energy to resist the attacks. Sword qi criss crossed the small room, and sabre energy danced in the air. It was as though countless miniature thunderbolts or raging gales were repeatedly clashing against each other midair. After fighting for a while, Jiumozhi felt as though his opponent’s internal energy was only growing stronger and stronger, and his sword techniques were boundless without fathom, as though creating new stances on the spot. It was totally different from his earlier fight with Benyin, Benxiang, and the others, where they were rigidly sticking to a pre-set formula; in contrast, the variations were much more difficult to predict and fathom."

The text does not suggest randomness or luck that helped Duan Yu. Instead it shows that 6MSJ is indeed powerful to awe JMZ as DY had the techniques from the manual in mind. Even if DY rapid-fired, its still because of 6MSJ itself, not because of some unexplainable luck as you suggested.

[flamer]

Ahem, which leaves the number of competent users at ZERO.

And what was your point again?

Hey at least its not SWEEPER-MONK level high as required (as you wish) for P-Palm. Xuzhu for one, would definitely be able to learn it, as with other strong internal individuals in JY. At least its not the impossible-land of internal energy. To think of it, 6MSJ may be designed to use in conjunction with BMSG.

P.S CC, I think the extremely-high-internal-energy-perquisite to ultimately learn 72 Arts is still wishful thinking for you and your P-Palm... For all we know, P-Palm was demonstrated by Xuanci and I dunno.. Not that impressive.

[CFT]

You seem to refuse to give 6MSJ its due credit in helping the complete novice Duan Yu against seasoned JMZ. You push it to luck and randomness when the passage clearly points out exquisiteness and ability of 6MSJ.

Huh? Even RWX thinks it's because DY rapid-fired 6MSJ. Where does it say it was the exquisiteness? Even the text says DY randomly fired his shots.

After fighting for a while, Jiumozhi felt as though his opponent’s internal energy was only growing stronger and stronger, and his sword techniques were boundless without fathom, as though creating new stances on the spot. It was totally different from his earlier fight with Benyin, Benxiang, and the others, where they were rigidly sticking to a pre-set formula; in contrast, the variations were much more difficult to predict and fathom.

"Forget" the fact that DY *might* have superior internal energy to JMZ. It is just the enabler for the execution of the full 6MSJ. It means that DY can fire a seemingly inexhaustible supply of qi swords.

Although DY is using random techniques from the 6MSJ arsenal, it doesn't mean they are wild swings of the sword. They are still the proper techniques of 6MSJ, just not the rigid and predictable formation of the 6 monks.

Like flamer says, the 6MSJ techniques suddenly propel someone with absolutely no practical martial arts training into a force to be reckoned with. One that requires a seasoned master like JMZ to use an elite technique (the Fire Blade) to counter. We still really can't compare the two techniques adequately. It is not just the art but also the man. Think of XF against monk XuanNan, both using the Founder's Long Fist.

[CC]

Hey at least its not SWEEPER-MONK level high as required (as you wish) for P-Palm. Xuzhu for one, would definitely be able to learn it, as with other strong internal individuals in JY. At least its not the impossible-land of internal energy. To think of it, 6MSJ may be designed to use in conjunction with BMSG.

P.S CC, I think the extremely-high-internal-energy-perquisite to ultimately learn 72 Arts is still wishful thinking for you and your P-Palm... For all we know, P-Palm was demonstrated by Xuanci and I dunno.. Not that impressive.

No, my point is not that Prajna Palm requires Sweeper Monk levels of skill. My point is that no one who used the proper (thereby excluding JMZ) Shaolin 72 arts were at the levels of the true elites (guys like Xuan Ci who was the best of the Xuan monks were only 1/3 of XF or so). Look at the Dali monks who used 6MSJ. They suck even worse then a Xuan monk using 72 arts.

There is a big big big gap between Xuan Monks and Sweeper Monk.

[flamer]

No, my point is not that Prajna Palm requires Sweeper Monk levels of skill. My point is that no one who used the proper (thereby excluding JMZ) Shaolin 72 arts were at the levels of the true elites (guys like Xuan Ci who was the best of the Xuan monks were only 1/3 of XF or so). Look at the Dali monks who used 6MSJ. They suck even worse then a Xuan monk using 72 arts.

There is a big big big gap between Xuan Monks and Sweeper Monk.

Right, was there a fight of XF using one of the 72 Arts? I thought the description of Xuan Monks (vs JMZ) showed they had pretty good mastery of their respective Arts, while it was made clear from the start that the Dali Monks were complete novices at 6MSJ. On a side note, what about JMZ's P-Palm, are you going to dismiss it because its not the REAL thing? (which I can understand)

[CC]

Right, was there a fight of XF using one of the 72 Arts? I thought the description of Xuan Monks (vs JMZ) showed they had pretty good mastery of their respective Arts, while it was made clear from the start that the Dali Monks were complete novices at 6MSJ. On a side note, what about JMZ's P-Palm, are you going to dismiss it because its not the REAL thing? (which I can understand)

No, but with no other source of internal other then one of the 72 arts, he did incredibly good in terms of inner power.

The Xuan monks were still weak compared to the elites. But thats not a bad thing. It just means that the 72 arts are not all-or-nothing. Most reasonable martial artists can learn it and use it to good effect (like the Xuan Monks) but there is still-a-lot-more-to-go if you can unlock the remaining potential. This was in-fact noted in the narration of Prajna Palm.

JMZ's fake Prajna Palm? It only demonstrated how awesome a 72 art can be in the right hands. It did LDA which was like 6MSJ in that it had incredible cutting power at long range.

[flamer]

No, but with no other source of internal other then one of the 72 arts, he did incredibly good in terms of inner power.

The Xuan monks were still weak compared to the elites. But thats not a bad thing. It just means that the 72 arts are not all-or-nothing. Most reasonable martial artists can learn it and use it to good effect (like the Xuan Monks) but there is still-a-lot-more-to-go if you can unlock the remaining potential. This was in-fact noted in the narration of Prajna Palm.

JMZ's fake Prajna Palm? It only demonstrated how awesome a 72 art can be in the right hands. It did LDA which was like 6MSJ in that it had incredible cutting power at long range.

Do we know if XF actually used the 72 Arts to cultivate internal? I always thought he just had advanced Shaolin internal practice which may or may not be one of the 72 Arts.

Well I guess the all-or-nothing thing is still part of your speculation. Narration of P-Palm but not of the whole 72 Arts and yet it sounds like such a typical description of a strong martial arts thats not backed up by facts. (No not a reference to 6MSJ here)

It may be true that P-Palm can be infinitely powerful but its just too far in the horizon for meaningful discussion.

Regarding JMZ, well, was it much more impressive than what JMZ could do with other martial arts? I don't think so.

[Ghaleon]

Like flamer says, the 6MSJ techniques suddenly propel someone with absolutely no practical martial arts training into a force to be reckoned with. One that requires a seasoned master like JMZ to use an elite technique (the Fire Blade) to counter

Yes definitely and DY had no martial training whatsoever compared to the heavily experienced JMZ. That speaks for itself to the power and potential of 6msg.

[ChronoReverse]

Lets get our beloved text.

*snip*

The text does not suggest randomness or luck that helped Duan Yu. Instead it shows that 6MSJ is indeed powerful to awe JMZ as DY had the techniques from the manual in mind. Even if DY rapid-fired, its still because of 6MSJ itself, not because of some unexplainable luck as you suggested.

This sort of misdirection technique is pretty much LYING.



Here's what you put:

Jiumozhi was astounded, and hurriedly generated his internal energy to resist the attacks. Sword qi criss crossed the small room, and sabre energy danced in the air. It was as though countless miniature thunderbolts or raging gales were repeatedly clashing against each other midair. After fighting for a while, Jiumozhi felt as though his opponent’s internal energy was only growing stronger and stronger, and his sword techniques were boundless without fathom, as though creating new stances on the spot. It was totally different from his earlier fight with Benyin, Benxiang, and the others, where they were rigidly sticking to a pre-set formula; in contrast, the variations were much more difficult to predict and fathom."

Here's RWX's translation:

Jiumozhi was astounded, and hurriedly generated his internal energy to resist the attacks. Sword qi criss crossed the small room, and sabre energy danced in the air. It was as though countless miniature thunderbolts or raging gales were repeatedly clashing against each other midair. After fighting for a while, Jiumozhi felt as though his opponent’s internal energy was only growing stronger and stronger, and his sword techniques were boundless without fathom, as though creating new stances on the spot. It was totally different from his earlier fight with Benyin, Benxiang, and the others, where they were rigidly sticking to a pre-set formula; in contrast, the variations were much more difficult to predict and fathom. He was not aware that Duan Yu was not able to memorize all of the complicated changes and transformations within the sword techniques of the ‘Divine Sword of the Six Meridians’, and was simply randomly piercing and stabbing about in a critical situation, much less inventing new stances on the spot. In his heart, he was both shocked and regretful. “The Heavenly Dragon Monastery actually has such a young and extraordinarily skilled master as this person. Today, I really did bring about my own humiliation!” Suddenly, he struck out three times, with three ‘chi’ sounds, before calling out, “Hold your hand!”

Deliberately leaving out the part that explains what DY was really doing just to make your point seem strong.

Good day sir, I will not debate with someone like this.

[flamer]

This sort of misdirection technique is pretty much LYING.



Here's what you put:


Here's RWX's translation:




Deliberately leaving out the part that explains what DY was really doing just to make your point seem strong.

Good day sir, I will not debate with someone like this.

Excuse me, what I did was to copy the entirety of Han Solo's OP on the other 6MSJ thread. I did not remember the original passage or seek the original passage as I thought Han Solo had the entire passage. I apologize for my laziness. But don't you think calling me lying a bit tactless?

Anyway, Duan Yu used random movements of 6MSJ, still doesn't show your point of those movements miraculously covering his flaws, which was my original point.

[ChronoReverse]

Perhaps I was a bit harsh but you shouldn't be so authoritative on using sections if you didn't read the context. Especially to point of saying things like "Let's refer to our beloved text" and "The text does not suggest..." To me it's as if you're saying I was lying and my temper flared up unfortunately.


In any case, if you were following the discussion I had already conceded to RWX that it appears that it was simply DY firing 6MSJ so quickly that JMZ could only defend.

Nonetheless, JMZ was still firing saber chi towards DY's sword chi (not directly at DY since he had no chance to do that). If DY had randomly moved one of his sword chi (unexpectedly to JMZ), a stray beam would have struck DY.

Remember, DY was not countering JMZ; DY was simply firing at JMZ as quickly as he could. DY would have had no idea whether or not he's finished dissipating JMZ's defending attack or not.

[flamer]

Perhaps I was a bit harsh but you shouldn't be so authoritative on using sections if you didn't read the context. Especially to point of saying things like "Let's refer to our beloved text" and "The text does not suggest..."


In any case, if you were following the discussion I had already conceded to RWX that it appears that it was simply DY firing 6MSJ so quickly that JMZ could only defend.

Well, it was the "beloved text"

Indeed, DY was firing so quickly that JMZ could only defend but this is no mere luck, its the 6MSJ.