What is the most profound, advanced martial art in DGSD?

[ChronoReverse]

What makes it 6MSJ though?

JMZ couldn't quite keep up with DY's firing rate but DY also had significantly stronger internal energy. Not to mention JMZ had already engaged in a fight without a break before this and had a gash on his body that's still bleeding out.

In the very quote we both posted it says that JMZ felt that DY's internal energy "was only growing stronger and stronger" and that DY's techniques were "boundless without fathom, as though creating new stances on the spot".

JY clearly explains that the latter was not true at all leaving only the second half the part with relevance.

Thus DY's internal energy allowing him to pour out attacks with power was what JMZ ultimately fell to in this case.




Let's say DY had learned Flaming Saber Palm instead of 6MSJ. Again he won't know the techniques but he'll have the saber chi portion down. We know that it's possible to fire multiple blade at once with this skill as well. Is there any reason to believe that DY doing a machine gun with FSP would not also wear down JMZ?

[CC]

Do we know if XF actually used the 72 Arts to cultivate internal? I always thought he just had advanced Shaolin internal practice which may or may not be one of the 72 Arts.

Well I guess the all-or-nothing thing is still part of your speculation. Narration of P-Palm but not of the whole 72 Arts and yet it sounds like such a typical description of a strong martial arts thats not backed up by facts. (No not a reference to 6MSJ here)

It may be true that P-Palm can be infinitely powerful but its just too far in the horizon for meaningful discussion.

Regarding JMZ, well, was it much more impressive than what JMZ could do with other martial arts? I don't think so.

1. Yes

2. You said it. At least Prajna Palm got narrated that way. 6MSJ did not get a similar narration. And it wasn't just the narration that hyped Prajna Palms. In a latter chapter, Sweeper said the same thing. So it wasn't a one off. You don't seem to be getting the point. Sure 72 Arts did not get a practical full display of their power (aside from possible Sweeper) but neither did 6MSJ. Dali monks using 6MSJ did not seem better than Xuan Monks using 72 Arts (THATS THE POINT). And DY using it took at least as long to subdue MRF compared to DYQ using Yi Yang Zhi.

3. You don't want to discuss it. Nice way to argue.

4. Because most of the 'other arts' are also part of the 72 arts?

If you are not addressing the points I keep bringing up, I shall end it here.

[ChanceEncounter]

Well, it was the "beloved text"

Indeed, DY was firing so quickly that JMZ could only defend but this is no mere luck, its the 6MSJ.

And his internal energy advantage over JMZ.

The point is that if DY had another elite skill, he should still be able to win because his internal energy is superior to JMZ's.

6MSJ is a great skill, no doubt, but what's shown in action (and even its narration) does not put it as the best skill in the canon. It's an elite skill, but it doesn't do anything to put it on its own pedestal.

[K2Grey]

What'd Sweeper say about 72 Arts? Is this the "as your knowledge of Buddhism grows greater, your martial arts grow as well" quote or is it another one where he talks specifically about Prana Palm?

[Han Solo]

What'd Sweeper say about 72 Arts? Is this the "as your knowledge of Buddhism grows greater, your martial arts grow as well" quote or is it another one where he talks specifically about Prana Palm?

Talking about martial arts in general, and Shaolin arts in particular.

Han Solo

[HuntingX]

OK, I'm sorry. I really can't fathom how people can think 6MSJ or ANYTHING is better than BMSG. Really.

Let's talk power.

6MSJ has massive requirements to use. You need internal energy, skill, comprehension, etc.

BMSG has no such requirements. Anyone (literally) can learn the skill. Once learned, use is automatic.

6MSJ is a technique based art. Given that you have this massive store of energy, you can then unleash it. Sure, it's impressive. Sure, it's hard to block (NOT unblockable). But, it's not ALLPOWERFUL.

BMSG is a cheater based art. A total scrub (say myself) armed with BMSG will quickly become #1 in Wulin. Not only would I be #1 in Wulin, I'd be more powerful than the rest of Wulin put together. Why? BMSG is a snowball.

What is the snowball effect? It's when having some advantage compounds earlier advantages, until the advantages snowball into this unholy pile of crap, such that no possible countermeasure can be developed.

BMSG is such a snowball. Starting at 0, you can steal energy from newbs. Steal from 1 newb, and stealing from newb #2 is easier. Steal from 100 newbs, and stealing from a pro is easier. Steal from even 1 pro, and all the top tier fighters are fair game. Steal a bit more, and you can literally steal power from whomever you choose.

Thus, in short order, you can quickly (efficiently) with next to no effort, with next to no skill, with next to no requirements, armed JUST with BMSG, go from 0 martial arts to #1 in Wulin by a ridiculous margin (Sweeps is NP). Fight all of Shaolin, then steal their internal if you so choose. They can't stop you.

What I'm saying is, AS PRESENTED IN THE TEXT, with reasonable logical deductions, BMSG is at least as powerful than any other art in JY, and properly abused (like I would certainly do), INFINITELY more powerful than EVERY OTHER ART PUT TOGETHER.

You CANNOT LOSE with BMSG. Literally. You. Cannot. Fail.

[PJ]

Lots of publicity about Prajna Palm, and yet it has not been mentioned that Jin Yong actually wrote that it's the most exquisite palm technique of all. Indeed, I don't recall another palm technique which Jin Yong specifically gave this awesome praise to; not even Sad Palm, XL18Z, or Tianshan 6 Yang Palm. Prajna Palm is the only palm style described as above all other palm styles.

[Han Solo]

OK, I'm sorry. I really can't fathom how people can think 6MSJ or ANYTHING is better than BMSG. Really.

Let's talk power.

6MSJ has massive requirements to use. You need internal energy, skill, comprehension, etc.

BMSG has no such requirements. Anyone (literally) can learn the skill. Once learned, use is automatic.

6MSJ is a technique based art. Given that you have this massive store of energy, you can then unleash it. Sure, it's impressive. Sure, it's hard to block (NOT unblockable). But, it's not ALLPOWERFUL.

BMSG is a cheater based art. A total scrub (say myself) armed with BMSG will quickly become #1 in Wulin. Not only would I be #1 in Wulin, I'd be more powerful than the rest of Wulin put together. Why? BMSG is a snowball.

What is the snowball effect? It's when having some advantage compounds earlier advantages, until the advantages snowball into this unholy pile of crap, such that no possible countermeasure can be developed.

BMSG is such a snowball. Starting at 0, you can steal energy from newbs. Steal from 1 newb, and stealing from newb #2 is easier. Steal from 100 newbs, and stealing from a pro is easier. Steal from even 1 pro, and all the top tier fighters are fair game. Steal a bit more, and you can literally steal power from whomever you choose.

Thus, in short order, you can quickly (efficiently) with next to no effort, with next to no skill, with next to no requirements, armed JUST with BMSG, go from 0 martial arts to #1 in Wulin by a ridiculous margin (Sweeps is NP). Fight all of Shaolin, then steal their internal if you so choose. They can't stop you.

What I'm saying is, AS PRESENTED IN THE TEXT, with reasonable logical deductions, BMSG is at least as powerful than any other art in JY, and properly abused (like I would certainly do), INFINITELY more powerful than EVERY OTHER ART PUT TOGETHER.

You CANNOT LOSE with BMSG. Literally. You. Cannot. Fail.

I'm sorry but BMSG is an easy technique for ppl who are beginning in martial arts.

In fact if handled incorrectly, it has the potential to cause the practitioner significant harm.

From Moin's translation:

The words on the scroll read: “Our sect’s internal energy is a total contrast to those of other sects, for internal energy cultivated using our methods flows in the opposite direction. As such, those who have already had practised internal energy training must forget those learnt in the past, and start training on the martial arts here diligently. If one has any stray thoughts left in one’s mind, this may lead to two opposite forces clashing with each other, which would immediately result in fire deviation. The victim will go mad and vomit blood, which he or she would then become fully paralyzed; nothing could possibly be more dangerous than this.”

The words repeatedly reiterated this point, emphasizing the severity of the situation. However, Duan Yu never began any internal energy training before; therefore, he could conveniently move on without having to bother with this dangerous stage at all.

DY's situation at the start of the novel is extremely lucky imho, with ppl kept on attacking or attaching themselves to his acupoint gate.

BMSG have its weakness as well. It can't be used against ppl stronger than you??

But if the opponent's inner force is stronger than mine, then the water of the sea will empty into the rivers and will lead to life threatening dangers, you have been forewarned.

Han Solo

[Han Solo]

Lots of publicity about Prajna Palm, and yet it has not been mentioned that Jin Yong actually wrote that it's the most exquisite palm technique of all. Indeed, I don't recall another palm technique which Jin Yong specifically gave this awesome praise to; not even Sad Palm, XL18Z, or Tianshan 6 Yang Palm. Prajna Palm is the only palm style described as above all other palm styles.

HL18Palm and Iron Sand Palm have been variously described as the most yang palm, Sad Palm etc have been described as the most overbearing palm technique.

Descriptions of a certain technique in this way is in no way proclaiming that it is the best in the world?

Han Solo

[flamer]

Lots of publicity about Prajna Palm, and yet it has not been mentioned that Jin Yong actually wrote that it's the most exquisite palm technique of all. Indeed, I don't recall another palm technique which Jin Yong specifically gave this awesome praise to; not even Sad Palm, XL18Z, or Tianshan 6 Yang Palm. Prajna Palm is the only palm style described as above all other palm styles.

I thought we went through this already? Theres a high chance that JY was simply referring to palm skills of SHAOLIN. P-Palm being the most exquisite palm of Shaolin.

Regarding Duan Yu vs JMZ, I must ask how did you guys expect Duan Yu to perform in his first ever fight? So to demonstrate the prowess of 6MSJ. Take down JMZ in some dozens of stances? He was clueless then and little control of his internal. Seriously he was a complete novice then and 6MSJ gave his a straight jump to challenge the Elite level. Xuzhu with WOW-internal and Tianshan Arts only just did better than Duan Yu, who was KNOWN for his problems with 6MSJ.

[PJ]

HL18Palm and Iron Sand Palm have been variously described as the most yang palm, Sad Palm etc have been described as the most overbearing palm technique.

Most yang and most overbearing don't necessarily equate the best. However:

Descriptions of a certain technique in this way is in no way proclaiming that it is the best in the world?

Prajna Palm was literally described as the best palm style of all.

[PJ]

I thought we went through this already? Theres a high chance that JY was simply referring to palm skills of SHAOLIN. P-Palm being the most exquisite palm of Shaolin.

There's also a high chance that Jin Yong simply meant what he wrote: that it is the best palm style of all.

This is certainly not out of place with its unparalleled status as the sole limitless technique in Jin Yong universe.

Prajna Palm is truly an underrated gem.

[Han Solo]

Most yang and most overbearing don't necessarily equate the best. However:



Prajna Palm was literally described as the best palm style of all.

You mentioned most exquisite before.

Exquisite can be variously replaced by the words ingenious, beautiful, delicate, elaborate, esoteric etc.

What was the phrase in the original chinese text please?

Han Solo

[flamer]

There's also a high chance that Jin Yong simply meant what he wrote: that it is the best palm style of all.

This is certainly not out of place with its unparalleled status as the sole limitless technique in Jin Yong universe.

Prajna Palm is truly an underrated gem.

Sigh I have to go search for the passage, here we go.

韦陀掌是少林派的扎根基武功，少林弟子拜师入门，第一套学“罗汉拳”，第二套学的便是“韦陀掌”。般若掌却 是最精奥的掌法，自韦陀掌学到般若掌，循序而进，通常要花三四十年功夫。

From the passage we can see that it was referring to basic Shaolin skills and then referred to P-Palm as the most exquisite palm, which quite clearly shows that it was comparing Shaolin skills only.

[PJ]

Sigh I have to go search for the passage, here we go.

韦陀掌是少林派的扎根基武功，少林弟子拜师入门，第一套学“罗汉拳”，第二套学的便是“韦陀掌”。般若掌却 是最精奥的掌法，自韦陀掌学到般若掌，循序而进，通常要花三四十年功夫。

From the passage we can see that it was referring to basic Shaolin skills and then referred to P-Palm as the most exquisite palm, which quite clearly shows that it was comparing Shaolin skills only.

Not explicitly. Veda Fist is specifically described as the most basic Shaolin skill but when it described Prajna Palm it is NOT established as a Shaolin-only description. But let's underrate it for now and take the most conservative interpretation to say it's just the best SHAOLIN palm skill -- OK, but that does NOT change the fact that it is the sole skill in Jin Yong universe identified to be:

1. LIMITLESS

2. able to cut a palm-shaped slice of cauldron from a long distance

3. as sharp as a treasured blade from a long distance

Based on the above facts, and considering Jin Yong's description about it being "the best", I have no reservation about it being not only "the best" Shaolin skill but indeed "the best" of all palm styles under heaven.

[flamer]

I'll give you the "Best Palm Style of Shaolin" title. But the problem is that the feats you named are no measuring gauge of its fighting ability and its description of limitless was not shown. Unless its certified that Sweeper used P-Palm to tap MRB.

[PJ]

I'll give you the "Best Palm Style of Shaolin" title. But the problem is that the feats you named are no measuring gauge of its fighting ability and its description of limitless was not shown. Unless its certified that Sweeper used P-Palm to tap MRB.

I think having witnessed its ability to cut out a slice of bronze with palm wind as sharp as a treasured blade is solid indication of its combat potential, and I say "potential" because Jiumozhi only used an improper fake version, so the real version is even better.

As for being limitless, it's one of those characteristics that is hard/impossible to "show" (it will be stuck trying to reach infinity) so having the narrator say it is sufficient.

[flamer]

I think having witnessed its ability to cut out a slice of bronze with palm wind as sharp as a treasured blade is solid indication of its combat potential, and I say "potential" because Jiumozhi only used an improper fake version, so the real version is even better.

As for being limitless, it's one of those characteristics that is hard/impossible to "show" (it will be stuck trying to reach infinity) so having the narrator say it is sufficient.

Lol TBH I think that is no evidence of combat ability. Its like Zhuo Bufan's table cutting ability...

Its hard to show infinity, but whats shown is still too weak.

[Han Solo]

I think that any display of Shaolin arts by JMZ at Shaolin needs to take into account of XWXG.

Han Solo

[yittz]

韦陀掌是少林派的扎根基武功，少林弟子拜师入门，第一套学“罗汉拳”，第二套学的便是“韦陀掌”。般若掌却 是最精奥的掌法，自韦陀掌学到般若掌，循
序而进，通常要花三四十年功夫。般若掌既是少林七十二绝技之一，练将下去，永无穷尽，掌力越练越强，招数愈 练愈纯，那是学无止境。自少林创派以来，以韦陀
掌和般若掌过招，实是从所未有。两者深浅精粗，正是少林武功的两个极端，会般若掌的前辈僧人，决不致和只会 韦陀掌的本门弟子动手，就算师徒之间喂招学艺，
师父既然使到般若掌，做弟子的至少也要以达摩掌、伏虎掌、如来千手法等等掌法应接。

Can we take things in context?

First no where did it say in that passage, that it was the best. It was the most exquisite of Shaolin palm styles, given the surrounding text it was refered in.

From the first sentence, it is comparing Shaolin palm styles to show how odd it was for Xu Zhu to compete with JMZ, one using the second most basic of Shaolin palm arts versus the other using the most exquisite and advanced set of palm techniques.

The 'no limit' part came after the comment "SINCE it's part of Shaolin 72 arts...". This suggests that ALL or at least many, of the Shaolin 72 arts are limitless, which raises the point what is 'limitness'? I can say Song Founder Fist is limitless as the Ju Xuan Manor battle showed, that everyone knew the full set of techniques and understood its theories, but no one could display it to such perfection as Xiao Feng did. What technique doesn't become stronger and more refined with practice. They may plateau, but I doubt any martial art hit an absolute wall.