6MSJ discussion.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Even more interesting is how 6MSJ was a weaker attack for the monks than using their palms (and presumably 1YZ unless there's some sort of reverse deterioration theory going on).


6MSJ sword chi can cut but it's weaker?

I think it was because they only knew how to use 6MSJ with one finger/meridian, so they could not counter multiple attacks at once with it. Proficiency may come into play as well; Elder Kurong was able to block it with 6MSJ. Whereas with YYZ, they were much more familiar with it.

[Ren Wo Xing]

That's the same thing as no flaws. Nobody can cover every single part of the body at the same time. The key is to defend/attack at the right places/times such that the opponent has no ability to get through. This is independent of speed as it's possible with even slow techniques (Tai Chi comes to mind).

In general, yes, but in this case, it's not so much about the right places or times, as it is the overwhelming burst of attacks. To go back to the machine-gun analogy, if you just keep on spraying the enemy with bullets, you don't need to aim; he's not going to have a chance to do anything but block/dodge.

[ChronoReverse]

I think it was because they only knew how to use 6MSJ with one finger/meridian, so they could not counter multiple attacks at once with it. Proficiency may come into play as well; Elder Kurong was able to block it with 6MSJ. Whereas with YYZ, they were much more familiar with it.

Perhaps, but this has the unfortunate (for 6MSJ's prestige) implication that JMZ was able to send out SIX^H^H^HTWELVE simultaneous blasts using his Blazing Flame Blade.

In general, yes, but in this case, it's not so much about the right places or times, as it is the overwhelming burst of attacks. To go back to the machine-gun analogy, if you just keep on spraying the enemy with bullets, you don't need to aim; he's not going to have a chance to do anything but block/dodge.

Thing is, JMZ was countering with his own machine gun. His may be slightly slower but it only takes a single better placed shot to finish DY. Unlike JMZ, DY has no capability to protect his body using internal energy nor the ability to retract his attacks to protect himself. Ultimately there's no good explanation for why not even a single one of JMZ's countershots made it to DY's body.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Perhaps, but this has the unfortunate (for 6MSJ's prestige) implication that JMZ was able to send out SIX simultaneous blasts using his Blazing Flame Blade.

Yes, this was VERY impressive. And it wasn't six; it should have been TWELVE, since, according to my reading, each person had to face two strikes.

[flamer]

At this point DY's internal energy is easily greater than JMZ's. The fact he was able to fire 6MSJ continuously without tiring is proof enough.

Furthermore, it was BECAUSE DY didn't adhere to 6MSJ's technique and instead used a form of "no technique" that JMZ ended having a lot of trouble predicting the path of the swords. If DY's sword attack pattern was actually sloppy and had holes in it, JMZ's own saber chi would have soared in and pierced DY. As usual, DY's extreme level of luck somehow allowed his "random" sword chi to cover all his holes.

Its actually not much evidence about DY's internal. It was just that JMZ (or others with Elite level internal) never had access to 6MSJ manual. We wouldn't know if Elite level internal is enough for 6MSJ. At this point however, DY really hasn't sucked in too much quality internal.

I need to re-read on that passage but judging from OP's passage, it appears that it was simply Duan Yu's skill of 6MSJ that astounded JMZ, not that his inexperience led to unexplainable defense of his loopholes.

[ChronoReverse]

JMZ felt that DY's internal energy was amazing. He stopped the fight despite (up to that point) countering each of DY's blasts because he felt that his internal energy wouldn't keep up.

How is that not proof that DY's internal energy is more than slightly better than JMZ's?

[Ren Wo Xing]

I believe it is stated later in chapter 11 or 12 that Duan Yu's internal energy was already greater than that of Jiumozhi, but Jiumozhi was able to bring more of it to bear; this was why Duan Yu was growing stronger and stronger at the fight.

Btw, Duan Yu actually sucked in a LOT of internal at this point, all of which was converted to Beiming energy, which is as quality as quality gets. Here's the relevant passage:

Duan Yu first drained all of the internal energy of seven disciples of Mt. Wuliang’s Sword sect, then absorbed some of the energy of masters such as Duan Yanqing, the Yellow Browed Monk, Ye Erniang, the Divine Crocodile, Yun Zhonghe, Zhong Wanchou, and Cui Baiquan [almost half of everyone's energy but Duan Yanqing]. This day, he gained a small portion of the internal energy of Emperor Baoding, Benguan, Benxiang, Benyin, and Bencan, five master martial artists of the Duan family. His internal energy was now incomparably deep and profound; the phrase, ‘Shocking the ancients and overawing contemporaries’ could be used to describe it. He had no equal in the entire world.

Following this, he drained a little more energy from Emperor Baoding and from Jiumozhi.

[Ghaleon]

Perhaps, but this has the unfortunate (for 6MSJ's prestige) implication that JMZ was able to send out SIX^H^H^HTWELVE simultaneous blasts using his Blazing Flame Blade.

I don't think it ruins 6MSG's prestige. 6MSG has more control as you can direct the Qi attacks through specific channels in the body. It's just a matter of mastering it which DY hasn't yet. But seriously, the possibilites are enormous. Being able to direct large continuous amounts of Qi-streams through the six meridians from the dantien is the most direct, efficient, and economic (not to mention, elegant) way to unleash a Qi storm to your opponent. It's like a direct map of energy transfer throughout the body from your dantien (where most of the Qi is stored during Qi cultivation). There is minimal energy loss as the Qi-stream is directed through specific channels all the way to the fingers (which is all part of the 6MSG techniques and postures). Trust me, 6MSG is a dream-come-true for qigong enthusiasts

Kind of reminds me of watching Emperor Palpatine (from Star Wars) unleash lightening bolts at ease from his finger tips.

[flamer]

JMZ felt that DY's internal energy was amazing. He stopped the fight despite (up to that point) countering each of DY's blasts because he felt that his internal energy wouldn't keep up.

How is that not proof that DY's internal energy is more than slightly better than JMZ's?

So the fact is that JMZ thought he will lose against Duan Yu if he continued? Is this because of his internal, or because of 6MSJ's prowess? Because we know that having vastly greater internal does not guarantee fights, ie Xuzhu vs Ding Chunqiu. So I think this also shows 6MSJ's power that a completely inexperienced and novice fighter can use it to give the seasoned JMZ some trouble.

[CFT]

I have a huge problem with this. Fingers are simply not that nimble when it comes down to it. The range of motion fingers can perform rapidly is very limited. In particular most of sword technique requires arm and wrist motion as well as proper footwork and body positioning.

Totally opposite to what JY wrote about the 6MSJ technique. Read Han Solo's "Single sword stance" quote in the 1st post.

So despite the Fire Blade technique seemingly equal to 6MSJ, JMZ still wants the manual? What does that tell you?

[HuntingX]

JMZ is a greed greedy man?

That statement has been proven again and again. To his detriment.

One thing actually bothers me: YTZ knew NO (or close enough) martial arts after he gained his inner power, but he was able to do "ok" in his fights, crushing newbs mercilessly, and fighting Freaky Ding pretty solidly.

However, DY, who has gained far MORE internal energy, can't do the same. Where's his auto-d? Didn't XZ get Auto-D after HE gained internal energy? Right now, DY's internal > XZ with just 1 elder (which is when his auto-d began to activate) AND when he was able to shoot palm blasts.

Finally, doesn't it seem... well... too easy to gain power with BMSG?

[flamer]

You Tanzhi had basic training in martial arts, which is always helpful. He can use basic stances to great effect with his internal as also shown by Xuzhu.

Its just like Z3F, GJ, YG and most other Greats, they have awesome internal but not quite auto defence, I think it still depends on the type of internal energy.

Xuzhu could blast walls, Duan Yu could 6MSJ a wall if he wanted, I suppose its fair.

Well BMSG is pretty awesome as probably one of the best martial arts in JY.

[ChronoReverse]

So despite the Fire Blade technique seemingly equal to 6MSJ, JMZ still wants the manual? What does that tell you?

That he over-estimated 6MSJ after what MRB told him? Mind you, this is the same MRB who later goes "lol 6SMJ" and then proves it.

Totally opposite to what JY wrote about the 6MSJ technique. Read Han Solo's "Single sword stance" quote in the 1st post.

All this really shows is that later on, DY was even less capable with 6MSJ and yet XF was still worried for some reason which really makes no sense since it's blatantly clear that another internal energy attack dissipates 6MSJ just like any other.

I mean honestly, what does it mean when DY gets his marbles together and beats up MRF? MRF isn't even that strong and his internal energy is worse than dwarfed by DY.

[Ghaleon]

Seriously what's up with all the criticisms of 6mSG? Kiu Fong AND Jin Yong agree that it rocks. What more needs to be said? Some of you guys are seriously nitpicking on the author's intention which is crazy.

[ChronoReverse]

Why resort to that sort of argument?


The whole point of discussion is that what JY and XF said, and what actually happened doesn't quite jive.

[Ghaleon]

Why resort to that sort of argument?


The whole point of discussion is that what JY and XF said, and what actually happened doesn't quite jive.

DY's fight with MRB. KF saw it in action and praised it greatly. It's also considered by wuxia experts to be the top 2 martial art in the DGSD world along with YGG.

I agree, it's hard to master. But GOOD martial arts are supposed to be hard to master.

[ChronoReverse]

DY fought with MRB? He fought with MRF I thought. Beating a relative grunt like him really doesn't mean much.


And wulin didn't consider it a top martial art. They didn't even know about it. Not even the Dali royal family knew about it. It was only XYP that perhaps considered it that way (since they didn't have it) but it's not like they witnessed it either.

[CFT]

That he over-estimated 6MSJ after what MRB told him? Mind you, this is the same MRB who later goes "lol 6SMJ" and then proves it.

JMZ has experienced single-user 6MSJ at the hands of DY. The proven fact that he kidnaps DY after the confrontation shows that he still covets the skill.

Are you comparing Canhe finger to 6MSJ? I'm only reading the translation as it unfolds. Does the story ever show it used from more than one finger at once?

[ChronoReverse]

I want to bring up another issue with 6MSJ if it's "exquisiteness" requires one to be able to execute all the swords in a personal formation.

There are 6 disparate techniques in 6MSJ with up to 10 swords being wielded at once. With L/R, XLN was able to wield two different sword techniques (meant to work together) by herself. This was not possible (and would've been considered absurd) to do normally obviously. So 6MSJ also needs a majorly multi-tasking brain to manipulate.




As an aside, 6MSJ makes me think of REAL MAN Z3F's Zhenwu Formation. The Zhenwu Formation was also intended for a single person to use resulting in a 64x multiplication of fighting efficacy. It turns out that it was too hard (probably impossible) for a single person to use it alone so Z3F split it into 7 parts. 6MSJ's limitation was internal energy and, I posit, the technique as well leading to some parallels.

JMZ has experienced single-user 6MSJ at the hands of DY. The proven fact that he kidnaps DY after the confrontation shows that he still covets the skill.

The issue I have with this part is that JMZ felt he was losing because it seemed like DY's internal energy was getting stronger (which it practically was since DY had massive internal energy to spare and likely bringing more and more to bear). It's not much of an endorsement for 6MSJ but rather BMSG (as I said really early on).

Are you comparing Canhe finger to 6MSJ? I'm only reading the translation as it unfolds. Does the story ever show it used from more than one finger at once?

There are translations floating around somewhere. One thing for sure though, its range far far exceeds 6MSJ's range.

[Ghaleon]

DY fought with MRB? He fought with MRF I thought. Beating a relative grunt like him really doesn't mean much.

Sorry, typo. The point wasn't that he beat MRF, the point of the fight was that it showed off the power and potential of 6MSG which KF admired greatly. So that tells you something given that KF has been in countless battles and his opinions should be respected a lot.