6MSJ discussion.

[ChronoReverse]

I'll just cover a few points that I thought you're incorrect about.

Sorry for the late reply.
It's the only invisible technique in the JY world.

JMZ's saber chi is also invisible. In fact, when he dueled with the 6 monks, he lit incense sticks so that the path of the various chi streams would be visible.

It is the only sword qi technique known in JY world. (I personally have doubt about DGKB's sword qi claims).

Doubts aside, we already have JMZ's saber chi.

Moreover, this sword techniques are launched via the finger. This enables the practitioner to adapt and launch attacks swifter than someone who can yield a sword or saber, while covering the same attack distance.

I have to concede this because JY said the same (even though that's not physically true).

In addition, It has a concentrated sword qi that can cut a saber.

Nothing unusual in DGSD really for the high level fighters.

It is long ranged- 10 feet. This is obviously shorter that the palm winds of HL18Palm or Canhe finger but none of these can have a concentrated energy to cut a metal i.e. saber.

HL28P just pulverizes rock but sure. JMZ's saber chi again can do the exact same thing though.

I would argue that the greatest strength of 6MSJ is that the various techniques of 6MSJ enables a well versed practitioner to execute multiple sword techniques that have complimentary strokes- potentially one can execute several strokes at the opponent at the same time --> thus making them unable to defend at all.

Still kind of a waste.

With just two swords, Jade Maiden + L/R can already execute complimentary strokes that leave no opening. A fighter with the internal energy required to execute 6MSJ could infuse two branches with internal energy and achieve a similar effect.

Since it's clear that 6MSJ is diffused by opposing internal energy, such a branch colliding with 6MSJ would diffuse the sword chi. The branch however will still continue to sail towards to accupoints even if its devoid of internal energy for a moment.


Which brings up the last problem. Now 6MSJ can execute 10 blades at once. However, if these blades are opposed by internal force, they dissipate just like any other internal energy attack. Against 10 blades, a HL18P practitioner only has to send a single double-palmed blast wave at the 6MSJ user. Assuming their internal energies are equal, all 10 blades would have to be sent out to cancel it out. If the HL18P was using something like the triple-melded attack of XF, even 10 blades wouldn't be enough.

[pannonian]

Which brings up the last problem. Now 6MSJ can execute 10 blades at once. However, if these blades are opposed by internal force, they dissipate just like any other internal energy attack. Against 10 blades, a HL18P practitioner only has to send a single double-palmed blast wave at the 6MSJ user. Assuming their internal energies are equal, all 10 blades would have to be sent out to cancel it out. If the HL18P was using something like the triple-melded attack of XF, even 10 blades wouldn't be enough.

That makes me think of Zhang Wuji's feat of storing Fan Yao's attacks using QKDNY, then releasing the energy in a single burst. Would ZWJ be able to store the attack energy of 6MSJ, and what would happen if he tried to do so with XF's triple dragon palms?

[ChronoReverse]

I'm not sure if it was made clear whether that could work on an attack that's just as powerful as you are. If it applies to even attacks of that level, it seems awfully broken =)

[ChanceEncounter]

I'm not sure if it was made clear whether that could work on an attack that's just as powerful as you are. If it applies to even attacks of that level, it seems awfully broken =)

QKDNY is awfully broken. ZWJ was not good at using it's more offensive applications, because he's ZWJ, but QKDNY deserves its status right on top of any skill in JY's universe. QKDNY states that it can redirect energies, even when normal force isn't sufficient. So it doesn't need to match the force in order to redirect or store the energy, it just needs to guide it in a new direction.

Someone with QKDNY (and knows how to use it) and high internal is next to invincible.

As for 6MSJ, I think it deserves its high standing. No one in the series was able to master it, but even with limited mastery, it belongs up there. At full mastery, it certainly would be a great spell. The question becomes, is it even possible to master 6MSJ all the way (to the point that you can use all 10 fingers and 6 meridians effortlessly)?

I suppose it's like claiming that someone learned the 13th level of Dragon-Elephant Prajna or the 7th level of QKDNY or the final, swordless, qi-breaking level of DG9J, and DGQB's sword technique does have sword qi. YG used sword qi when he was training in the waves.

You could argue that almost ANY skill when sufficiently advanced would be invincible.

As it's presented, 6MSJ is a very good skill, but not without its limitations.

[pannonian]

As for 6MSJ, I think it deserves its high standing. No one in the series was able to master it, but even with limited mastery, it belongs up there. At full mastery, it certainly would be a great spell. The question becomes, is it even possible to master 6MSJ all the way (to the point that you can use all 10 fingers and 6 meridians effortlessly)?

Yang Guo after eating those gallbladders was supposed to have been able to channel his qi without any obstruction (which is why I think they unblock channels, rather than boost internal per se). Also, the whole point of QKDNY was the efficient use of energy. So either snake gallbladders or QKDNY would help master the internal parts of 6MSJ.

[K2Grey]

I'm inclined to think ZWJ can't absorb and charge up with palm attacks that are relatively strong, which is why he did it on Fan Yao but he never seemed to use it on Xuan Ming Elders or the Du monks.

An interesting exploit of game mechanics would be that if you are an ally of ZWJ, instead of attacking his enemy with him, you should instead shoot palm blasts at ZWJ for him to charge up with before blowing up the enemy.

[Han Solo]

Ahem. Prajna Palm? Slicing the handprint from a metal cauldron with LDA? Palm Wind narrated to be as 'Sharp as a treasured sabre'?

What was the distance between JMZ and the copper incense? - your translation unfortunately didn't establish that.

If it is a close range effort then in actual combat, the larger range of 6MSJ may make it superior?

The other thing is that there was some previous discussion of copper vs metal in terms of material hardness/density. What was the conclusion from those discussions? Any material engineers out there? Is metal harder than copper - thus the effect of 6MSJ more profound?

JMZ and MRB don't actually know what 6MSJ is capable of. They are theorising from their own arts and other likely incomplete descriptions of 6MSJ in use.

Likely true. I wonder how MRB found out about 6MSJ in the first place? - via the MuRong family library? The founders of MuRong Clan vs the Duan family ancestors in the past? - If so, it would have been a fight to dream of. (There you go, PJ, my dream fight sequence )

It may be likely that MRB theorized about 6MSJ from what is rumored and extrapolated from what is known about YYZ and also from his own mastery of finger techniques.

I'll just cover a few points that I thought you're incorrect about.


JMZ's saber chi is also invisible. In fact, when he dueled with the 6 monks, he lit incense sticks so that the path of the various chi streams would be visible.


Doubts aside, we already have JMZ's saber chi.

I don't think that it is a saber chi. It is a wind from the saber palm.

Same difference? Maybe not- it goes back to the old discussions about LDA vs LDS, and the impact of having a sword qi vs a sword wind.

There are some school of thought that sword qi is better as the internal energy launched on the attack is more focused and thus may potentially cause more damage whereas the LDS/sword wind is a form of more diffused expression of the internal energy.

HL28P just pulverizes rock but sure. JMZ's saber chi again can do the exact same thing though.

I was using metal sabre as an example. See above- re:JMZ's feats and my questions about it.

With just two swords, Jade Maiden + L/R can already execute complimentary strokes that leave no opening. A fighter with the internal energy required to execute 6MSJ could infuse two branches with internal energy and achieve a similar effect.

What i was suggesting is that since 6MSJ if yielded with all 10 fingers and with its types of stances, then a true perfect offense-defence can be possible. Multiple attacking stances at the same time as multiple defensive stances as if the one person is 10 persons doing those stances. Can one man with 2 swords do the same?

Since it's clear that 6MSJ is diffused by opposing internal energy, such a branch colliding with 6MSJ would diffuse the sword chi. The branch however will still continue to sail towards to accupoints even if its devoid of internal energy for a moment.

Unlikely, an object devoid of energy will lose its kinetic force and will therefore fall. Basic Newtonian Physics.

Which brings up the last problem. Now 6MSJ can execute 10 blades at once. However, if these blades are opposed by internal force, they dissipate just like any other internal energy attack. Against 10 blades, a HL18P practitioner only has to send a single double-palmed blast wave at the 6MSJ user. Assuming their internal energies are equal, all 10 blades would have to be sent out to cancel it out. If the HL18P was using something like the triple-melded attack of XF, even 10 blades wouldn't be enough.

Hard to say. The closest that we have for a finger vs palm fight among elite fighters do not involve HL18Palm at all. YG's Sad Palm vs HYS's Divine Flicking Finger may be somewhat instructive. You do not need to cover the whole area of the palm attack if your concentrated finger attack can diffuse the energy of that attack.

That makes me think of Zhang Wuji's feat of storing Fan Yao's attacks using QKDNY, then releasing the energy in a single burst. Would ZWJ be able to store the attack energy of 6MSJ, and what would happen if he tried to do so with XF's triple dragon palms?

I think that is going to be very hard for QKDNY to store and rebound the attack from an internal energy that is stronger than its own. This is extrapolated from MRF's attempt of using a similar skill against QF.

As for 6MSJ, I think it deserves its high standing. No one in the series was able to master it, but even with limited mastery, it belongs up there. At full mastery, it certainly would be a great spell. The question becomes, is it even possible to master 6MSJ all the way (to the point that you can use all 10 fingers and 6 meridians effortlessly)?

I think that the ideal practitioner with a sufficient understanding of martial arts with a very strong internal energy (DY level or above) would be able to achieve that feat.

You could argue that almost ANY skill when sufficiently advanced would be invincible.

As it's presented, 6MSJ is a very good skill, but not without its limitations.

True. Same with any skills really.

Han Solo

[ChronoReverse]

First off, RWX has kindly translated that section for us. So take it up with him if you disagree with his translation.

I don't think that it is a saber chi. It is a wind from the saber palm.

It's called Blazing Saber Palm. It sends out narrow invisible streams of energy (as proven by the smoke streams). It cuts like a saber (as proven when JMZ was about to cut DY's arm off). JMZ could even hold it still in mid-air while using 5 other streams to fight. How is it not saber chi?

What i was suggesting is that since 6MSJ if yielded with all 10 fingers and with its types of stances, then a true perfect offense-defence can be possible. Multiple attacking stances at the same time as multiple defensive stances as if the one person is 10 persons doing those stances. Can one man with 2 swords do the same?

My point was that multiple strikes and defenses aren't needed because Jade Maiden already left no openings even with an attack. This doesn't mean 6MSJ didn't achieve it as well. It's just that he would've been just as well off simply using two of the qi swords with Jade Maiden (assuming they could use L/R). In other words, 6MSJ's technique is great but not incomparable.

In any case, if you're going to talk about theoretical martial arts that are not performable by one person (even DY couldn't after all), there's still stuff that's better, like Z3F's Zhenwu Formation. Sure nobody is fast enough to use all of the 7 arts at once. But if someone hypothetically was quick enough, he'd multiple his power by 64!

Unlikely, an object devoid of energy will lose its kinetic force and will therefore fall. Basic Newtonian Physics.

Think a little harder then. A sword qi stream disappears when dissipated. A branch (or a sword) is still held by the user and the muscles driving it. The internal energy that's infused will be gone since it cancels with the sword qi, but the weapon will still be there and moving. If we're esoteric, there might be a stream of air remaining from the sword chi but for obvious reasons I discounting it (a weapon can do damage without internal energy but air cannot).

The real kicker is what happens if you're locked in an internal energy battle with your opponent. If you're weaponless, you better hope you have stronger internal energy. If you have a sword, you can still slowly bring it to bear.

YG's Sad Palm vs HYS's Divine Flicking Finger may be somewhat instructive. You do not need to cover the whole area of the palm attack if your concentrated finger attack can diffuse the energy of that attack.

Yup. Except the 6MSJ user and HL18P user has equal internal energy.

6MSJ is maximized when 10 swords are fired out. HL18P is maximized when both palms are used.

Therefore they cancel out.

[Ren Wo Xing]

I am almost certain that he was using invisible qi to fight, not mere 'wind'. The character wind, '风', was not used a single time in describing Jiumozhi's fights; in each case, the reference was to him protecting/defending himself with internal energy, qi, or internal strength. Moreover, after he pushed out the lines of jade smoke, he was able to hold them steady and unmoving; this is something that I can't even imagine anyone possibly doing with just wind. Lastly, in the actual fight itself, Jinyong described the sabre energy almost exactly the same way as he did with the sword qi; he portrayed the battle between him and the five/six monks as an actual battle of invisible swords against invisible sabres flying in the air.

[ChronoReverse]

Even if it weren't the case, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

[Ren Wo Xing]

Yes, I agree. Maybe sword qi is more profound than sabre qi, just like how a master of the sword is supposed to be superior to the master of a sabre, but in any event, Blazing Sabre was effectively an invisible qi blade/sabre.

[K2Grey]

JMZ > XF, discuss

[Han Solo]

My point was that multiple strikes and defenses aren't needed because Jade Maiden already left no openings even with an attack. This doesn't mean 6MSJ didn't achieve it as well. It's just that he would've been just as well off simply using two of the qi swords with Jade Maiden (assuming they could use L/R). In other words, 6MSJ's technique is great but not incomparable.

In any case, if you're going to talk about theoretical martial arts that are not performable by one person (even DY couldn't after all), there's still stuff that's better, like Z3F's Zhenwu Formation. Sure nobody is fast enough to use all of the 7 arts at once. But if someone hypothetically was quick enough, he'd multiple his power by 64!

We have seen a dual strike of 6MSJ from Elder Kurong, a mid-tier fighter in DGSD. DY have also used 2 different techniques at the same time in Heavenly Dragon Temple. It is not inconceivable that someone with a stronger internal energy being able to launch multiple simultaneous attacks.

Think a little harder then. A sword qi stream disappears when dissipated. A branch (or a sword) is still held by the user and the muscles driving it. The internal energy that's infused will be gone since it cancels with the sword qi, but the weapon will still be there and moving. If we're esoteric, there might be a stream of air remaining from the sword chi but for obvious reasons I discounting it (a weapon can do damage without internal energy but air cannot).

The real kicker is what happens if you're locked in an internal energy battle with your opponent. If you're weaponless, you better hope you have stronger internal energy. If you have a sword, you can still slowly bring it to bear.

Sorry, i thought you were talking about a projectile fused with internal energy launched into a 6MSJ practitioner.

If the fight is between a swordsman and a 6MSJ, even if there are equality in the internal energy, then the ability of the fingers to be more dexterous in launching sword techniques than a physical sword is likely going to be a winning factor.

Yup. Except the 6MSJ user and HL18P user has equal internal energy.

6MSJ is maximized when 10 swords are fired out. HL18P is maximized when both palms are used.

Therefore they cancel out.

I was using the HYS-YG example to show that if there's quasi equality in internal energy, the finger technique may not necessarily lose to a palm technique.

I am almost certain that he was using invisible qi to fight, not mere 'wind'. The character wind, '风', was not used a single time in describing Jiumozhi's fights; in each case, the reference was to him protecting/defending himself with internal energy, qi, or internal strength. Moreover, after he pushed out the lines of jade smoke, he was able to hold them steady and unmoving; this is something that I can't even imagine anyone possibly doing with just wind. Lastly, in the actual fight itself, Jinyong described the sabre energy almost exactly the same way as he did with the sword qi; he portrayed the battle between him and the five/six monks as an actual battle of invisible swords against invisible sabres flying in the air.

Thanks for the clarification Chrono and RWX.

JMZ really impressed me at the Heavenly Dragon Temple, not only for demonstrating this saber "qi" but also his ability to use internal energy to protect his body. Doesn't this remind you of the Bei Ming Zhen Qi Shield of XZ or Sweeper's auto-defence?

JMZ > XF, discuss

Internal Energy and Martial arts wise, XF ~= JMZ.

Fighting in a real situation wise, XF > JMZ.

Han Solo

[Ken Cheng]

Internal Energy and Martial arts wise, XF ~= JMZ.

Fighting in a real situation wise, XF > JMZ.

Han Solo

I'd like to think so too, but do you believe that Kiu Fung could have handled those five Celestial Dragon Temple monks and Deun Jing Ming as handily as Kau Mor Tze did?

[PJ]

do you believe that Kiu Fung could have handled those five Celestial Dragon Temple monks and Deun Jing Ming as handily as Kau Mor Tze did?

The scenery might be very different. Xiao Feng would exude less sophistication than Jiumozhi and more aggression.

Personally, I see the result as:

1. The monks (6M) use watered down 6MSJ against Xiao Feng

2. Xiao Feng gets aggressive and starts forcing 6M to a disadvantage

3. 6M give up 6MSJ and use their most adept skills in response

4. Xiao Feng = in trouble, but holds on

Certainly, I imagine Xiao Feng would have to spend more effort than Jiumozhi.

[CC]

What was the distance between JMZ and the copper incense? - your translation unfortunately didn't establish that.

If it is a close range effort then in actual combat, the larger range of 6MSJ may make it superior?


Han Solo

Considering 6MSJ never showed a range longer then 10 feet. And JMZ did his palm on a cauldron which was flying up in the air. I'd say >>>10 feet is not an issue.

[Han Solo]

HYS has kindly send me a link to his diagram about the Celestial Dragon Temple.

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Han Solo

[CC]

The scenery might be very different. Xiao Feng would exude less sophistication than Jiumozhi and more aggression.

Personally, I see the result as:

1. The monks (6M) use watered down 6MSJ against Xiao Feng

2. Xiao Feng gets aggressive and starts forcing 6M to a disadvantage

3. 6M give up 6MSJ and use their most adept skills in response

4. Xiao Feng = in trouble, but holds on

Certainly, I imagine Xiao Feng would have to spend more effort than Jiumozhi.

I'd see XF having to use his Qin Long Gong here if he isn't going to do pure XLZ blasting. In fact, dashing forward suddenly and useing Qin Long Gong to grab the manuscripts would be fun.

[PJ]

I'd see XF having to use his Qin Long Gong here if he isn't going to do pure XLZ blasting. In fact, dashing forward suddenly and useing Qin Long Gong to grab the manuscripts would be fun.

Jiumozhi knew Crane-Controlling Technique which is the same thing as Dragon-Capturing Hands, but he didn't use it to grab manual.

[CC]

Jiumozhi knew Crane-Controlling Technique which is the same thing as Dragon-Capturing Hands, but he didn't use it to grab manual.

He should have. He was probably too busy trying to showboat. I think he was too confident in his own status and was expecting the Dali Monks to be in awe the Dharma King of Tibet.