Hypothetical: Hui Juk tests 6 Yeung Divine Palms, Hong Lung 28 Palms, and MGGPs.

[timeless]

At the end of HSDS, Cheung Mo Gei was certainly no weaker than end-of-ROCH 1 Deng.

That may be so, but if one remembers that scene of how QKDNY was used to rescue the captured main sects from the Mongols. The neigong power exhibited is certainly more astounding than all the herculean internal powers demonstrated by the Greats at the end of ROCH.

[timeless]

Ding Chun Chou was weaker than a CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY Great. He was at around the same level as Deun Yin Hing, who in turn was weaker than his descendant Deun Chi Hing/1 Deng.

May i ask, where did you get that from?

So, if we subscribe to that understanding, Ken, then it further strengthens the position that Xz's internal as well as external was far too overestimated.

[Ken Cheng]

May i ask, where did you get that from?

It was more or less the summary consensus reached after numerous discussions: in DGSD, it was established that it would take about a half dozen Deun Yin Hings to overpower Kiu Fung and similar level fighters (i.e. Siu Yeun San, Mo Yung Bok, and Kau Mor Tze). We've gone back and forth about whether the Kiu Fung-level Elites of DGSD or the end-of-ROCH Greats are better, but what both sides generally agree on is that the difference between the two (if indeed there is any difference) is not *that* great a difference. Even the winner between representative fighters from each story would know that he's been in a serious fight (i.e. even if Kiu Fung defeats Gwok Jing or Yeung Gor, his victory will come only after the toughest one-on-one fight of his life).

If you go by this, then Deun Yin Hing (and by extension, Ding Chun Chou, who was established as being on a similar level to Deun Yin Hing in an earlier discussion) can't be anywhere *near* Greats class because about six of him would be necessary to take on Kiu Fung.

[timeless]

It was more or less the summary consensus reached after numerous discussions: in DGSD, it was established that it would take about a half dozen Deun Yin Hings to overpower Kiu Fung and similar level fighters (i.e. Siu Yeun San, Mo Yung Bok, and Kau Mor Tze). We've gone back and forth about whether the Kiu Fung-level Elites of DGSD or the end-of-ROCH Greats are better, but what both sides generally agree on is that the difference between the two (if indeed there is any difference) is not *that* great a difference. Even the winner between representative fighters from each story would know that he's been in a serious fight (i.e. even if Kiu Fung defeats Gwok Jing or Yeung Gor, his victory will come only after the toughest one-on-one fight of his life).

If you go by this, then Deun Yin Hing (and by extension, Ding Chun Chou, who was established as being on a similar level to Deun Yin Hing in an earlier discussion) can't be anywhere *near* Greats class because about six of him would be necessary to take on Kiu Fung.

In my humble opinion that subjective consensus arrived at is still open to debate. The condor greats are even more overrated than Xf who is also slightly overrated by double measure. Dcq should be seen as the 'Western Poison' of DGSD era. I think many people underrated his Huagongdafa and other poisonous sleight of hands martial arts due to how he joined forces with the others to fight Xf.

[CC]

If Tstl & Lqs, who were said to be Greats level, how is it that the internal energies transmitted from them as well as Wuyazi's onto Xz's body did not let Xz dealt with Dcq as easily and swiftly as if he was a 300% Great fighting a 100% Great like Dcq, who was junior to both Tstl & Lcs, without having to deploy the Shenshifu- on top of all the external martial arts he learnt.


The 200 years' worth of internal energies transmitted needs to be seen not so much in qualitative time power than as telling us that Xz was just handed down very high internal power - as a short cut way of distinguishing him from that longer route taken by Dy who had to sucked up just as much high internal from far more many people.

Go and read the novel will you? JY explicitly took time to explain why XZ took longer and how he could have KO'ed DCQ swiftly if he wanted.

You don't seem to respond to ANY of my points. You just keep chucking out new questions without answering.

If you read the novel, JY took the time and effort to create multiple events and narrative in the story to point out XZ's great inner power and the crazy effects it had.

[timeless]

Go and read the novel will you? JY explicitly took time to explain why XZ took longer and how he could have KO'ed DCQ swiftly if he wanted.

You don't seem to respond to ANY of my points. You just keep chucking out new questions without answering.

If you read the novel, JY took the time and effort to create multiple events and narrative in the story to point out XZ's great inner power and the crazy effects it had.

I am not in denial of any of that or trying to offend you, CC. I thought i have addressed some of the points you raised whether you agree with me or not is up to you. To restate it in another way, i am not putting down the whole idea that Xz 's internal power was very high but to qualify that the extent of his internal power should not be seen as directly in proportion to how long a time the Xiaoyao Elders took to cultivate their own personal internal energies.

[flamer]

Indeed we should not measure the quantity/quality of internal energy based on time spent on cultivating. However, for XY Elders, their internal level is undeniably high. If going by the general consensus of Elite level internal, 3X that is still 3X Elite level internal energy into Xuzhu.

[timeless]

Indeed we should not measure the quantity/quality of internal energy based on time spent on cultivating. However, for XY Elders, their internal level is undeniably high. If going by the general consensus of Elite level internal, 3X that is still 3X Elite level internal energy into Xuzhu.

Certainly, like i said, whether its 3 person > or = 10 persons, how high they have cultivated it cannot be determined largely by the time factor.

If Xz on a whim (hypothetically), say after 6 months, decided to passed up his XY sect responsibilities to play consort full time, and he passed some some of his internal energies (60%) to someone else which he finds more worthy. So do we say that the person absorbed 60% of 6 months worth of martial arts from Xz which is like only 3.5 months of internal energies????

Conversely, let us suppose if Wuyazi only became a Xiaoyao after he took 20 years to build up his internal from scratch when he started it at age 25. In between long lapses, he was finding ways of creating other styles, chasing girls, building his sect and training and courting his disciples, then at age 60 he grew tired and decided to improve on his internals since he was too isolated to find any powerful enermies to suck from, so his rate of power mprovement is dependant on how and what techniques he used to grow it....

So if someone were to add up how many years worth of internal as sucked by Dy, eg- Nhes (30 years) + Jmz ( 40 years) +.... though actually(hypothetically) Jmz took a big increase within 2 years when he learnt a certain power growing technique.

Gj sucking the blood of the special serpent that increases a person's internal many times within minutes.

Do you see my point now??

[CC]

Sure, the number of years trained is not a good indicator BUT why do you argue it ONE WAY only?

e.g. you seem to be arguing that 2 years of JMZ training might be more than 2 years of TSTL's training. Why can't 6 months of TSTL training be MORE than 2 years of JMZ's training then? Why can't WYZ's 70 years of Bei Ming Energy (he stated he trained for 70 years) be worth 200 years of Guo Jing's training then?

By all indications, the 3 Elders were martial arts prodigies. And there was GREAT incentive for TSTL and LQS to train very very hard because they were trying to kill each other for over 70 years.

[timeless]

Sure, the number of years trained is not a good indicator BUT why do you argue it ONE WAY only?

e.g. you seem to be arguing that 2 years of JMZ training might be more than 2 years of TSTL's training. Why can't 6 months of TSTL training be MORE than 2 years of JMZ's training then? Why can't WYZ's 70 years of Bei Ming Energy (he stated he trained for 70 years) be worth 200 years of Guo Jing's training then?

By all indications, the 3 Elders were martial arts prodigies. And there was GREAT incentive for TSTL and LQS to train very very hard because they were trying to kill each other for over 70 years.

I did also considered the other way if you see the hypothetical analogies made to Gj & Jmz.
Yes, they honed their fighting skills against each other but their training was interrupted by many physical setbacks and other sect related problems.

[tape]

Doesn't really matter about their setbacks and problems, what matters is the end product that we see. And we clearly see their feats are at the very least much more impressive than the Greats have shown.

[person135]

what feats did the XY elders do exactly? they only fought amongst themselves, and Wuyazi's disciple was losing to DCQ if I remember correctly. XF>DCQ>Wuyazi's disciple

for all the internal energy XZ had, he might have been able to perform those feats if he had maybe 130% or 150% of a great's internal energy. there's no need for him to necessarily have 300% to be able to do what he did.

[tape]

A 50 ft LDA, Xu Zhu being immune to a Great level fighter's attacks. He was completely immune; he didn't even feel any of the blows. I believe he was kicked like 10-20 times and he only realized afterwards that he'd been hit.

For reference, Huang Yaoshi was left feeling pain and gasping when he let the palm wind of Qiu Chuji brush him as he was so careless and arrogant when he was fighting them. This is only the palm wind of him, not even the actual palm. It shows that someone of Qiu Chuji's caliber could most likely injure a Great if he was allowed to land a direct hit.

I don't know how you want to view the inner strength of Qiu Chuji compared to Huang Yaoshi, but the difference between Xu Zhu is greater than that. A palm exchange between Xuanci and Xian Feng left Xiao Feng gasping. I don't think people realize how powerful someone must be for direct hard hitting blows to just bounce off them. The person you're bouncing must be in the realm of 5-10x weaker than you for it to happen.We've seen people at around 30% being able to exchange palm clashes and leaving the stronger person a bit winded; letting it bounce off you unknowingly is on a much higher level.

[Ken Cheng]

A 50 ft LDA, Xu Zhu being immune to a Great level fighter's attacks. He was completely immune; he didn't even feel any of the blows. I believe he was kicked like 10-20 times and he only realized afterwards that he'd been hit.

Which is sort of bizarre, really. It's said that Hui Juk has about three times the inner power of a Great. It might be actually higher than that, but I don't think it's as much as six or seven times higher than that of a Great. Three (four tops) is about it.

The thing is, if a guy with only a third of my strength (or even a fourth) hits me with all his might, I'm going to feel it. I might not be badly hurt by his strikes, but I'll definitely feel them. I might even get knocked off-balance for a moment if I'm not ready for it.

[tape]

Well thats wuxia physics for ya, so the real world analogy might not apply.

It just makes it that much more impressive for me personally though, because I expect weaker fighters to not know how to utilize their energy efficiently or send it out to the correct points or whatever to do maximum damage. So a Jin flunkie against someone with 3x Jin flunkie internal, could still hurt the 3x guy if he sent out his internal well, but if he sent it out poorly he might bounce off the 3x guy.

But someone around the Qiu Chuji level will certainly do it well, so he can definitely hurt someone 3x his energy. THis only becomes increasingly more impressive as we know a Great level fighter will be even more proficient at sending out energy and hurting a 3x guy. I'd reasonably expect Xu Zhu to have at least 5x the internal of a Great.

[Ken Cheng]

But someone around the Qiu Chuji level will certainly do it well, so he can definitely hurt someone 3x his energy. THis only becomes increasingly more impressive as we know a Great level fighter will be even more proficient at sending out energy and hurting a 3x guy. I'd reasonably expect Xu Zhu to have at least 5x the internal of a Great.

I have a huge problem with this. I'm *always* wary of any one wuxia character becoming too powerful (which is why I'm not too particularly fond of the Janitor Monk, Dook Goo Kau Bai, Gu Long's Siu Yiu Hou, and increasingly now, Hui Juk), especially if they're ahead of an already well-established Greats/Elite class. We already know how powerful that Greats/Elites are. Having characters three times more powerful than that class is already stretching credibility uncomfortably (to me), but when it gets to five times or higher...

[tape]

I think Xu Zhu shouldn't bother you as much, as we see he's basically just a merging of three extremely above Great level characters already into one through a freak accident. I can see your point with Sweeper and Dugu, where they presumably trained their skills legitimately and somehow rose to 5-10x Great level when we're supposed to be awed by Greats. It takes away their luster. But in Xu Zhu's case, it's more acceptable since it's acknowledged he's just a freak and it's not due to any shortcomings of the Greats but the luck/freakiness of Xu Zhu.

[PJ]

for all the internal energy XZ had, he might have been able to perform those feats if he had maybe 130% or 150% of a great's internal energy. there's no need for him to necessarily have 300% to be able to do what he did.

Yes, and we have an excellent example from ROCH.

The Godly Yang Guo was able to withstand a surprising attack by Great-level Qiu Qianren (he's about 95% Great-level) without ANY injury. The Godly Yang Guo never saw the attack coming. Contrast this with LOCH Hong Qigong, when he was surprisingly attacked by Ouyang Feng, he was gravely wounded. This means a Great level fighter cannot withstand another Great's surprising attack, but Yang Guo did, swiftly and suavely.

Further proof that Yang Guo > The Greats. It would be modest to estimate Yang Guo =~ 130% - 150% of a Great.

Oh, sorry, didn't mean the YangGuo-hijack another thread!

[person135]

lol..................
i agree with ken though. it throws off everything. JY just make a xz vs janitor monk fight damit

maybe JMZ's LDA has some kind of negation with XZ's internal energy that allowed XZ to feel nothing at all.

[flamer]

Yes, and we have an excellent example from ROCH.

The Godly Yang Guo was able to withstand a surprising attack by Great-level Qiu Qianren (he's about 95% Great-level) without ANY injury. The Godly Yang Guo never saw the attack coming. Contrast this with LOCH Hong Qigong, when he was surprisingly attacked by Ouyang Feng, he was gravely wounded. This means a Great level fighter cannot withstand another Great's surprising attack, but Yang Guo did, swiftly and suavely.

Further proof that Yang Guo > The Greats. It would be modest to estimate Yang Guo =~ 130% - 150% of a Great.

Oh, sorry, didn't mean the YangGuo-hijack another thread!

YG never coped it in the chest. He simply allowed the wind to carry himself backwards when he sensed it reaching his chest.

杨过只道已用言语打动了他，那料他竟会忽地发难，霎时间掌风及
胸，危急中不及运劲相抗，索性顺着他掌力纵身后跃，砰嘭格喇两声响，木屋板壁撞破了一
个大洞，杨过飞身到了屋外

Essentially he leaped back and crashed through the wooden plank wall.