Could Shih For Lung have defeated Sing Kwun if Shih knew the complete HL18P?

[Ken Cheng]

During HSDS, Beggar's Union Chief Shih For Lung gave the villain Sing Kwun a tough fight despite Chief Shih not knowing the complete Hong Lung 18 Palms. Chief Shih never successfully learned all eighteen palms because he lacked the inner power to do so, and injured himself badly trying to learn the palms.

If Chief Shih had successfully learned all eighteen palms, however, could he have defeated Sing Kwun?

Logic problem: Chief Shih's failure to learn the Hong Lung 18 Palms was attributed to his lack of inner power, but given the good fight he gave Sing Kwun even without the complete set of palms, the implication is that Chief Shih's inner power wasn't that bad. The chief's inner power should have been at least somewhere near the level of Sing Kwun's, which is quite a high level in the HSDS era even if it falls far short of the levels of Greats such as Cheung Mo Gei and Cheung 3 Fung.

For certain, Chief Shih must have had greater inner power than Gwok Jing did during LOCH when Gwok learned the complete Hong Lung 18 Palms from North Beggar Hung 7 Gung, right? If 18-year old Gwok Jing, who hadn't even begun to train in the 9 Yum Jen Ging inner power techniques, could learn the complete Hong Lung 18 Palms with little more than the meager Cheun Jen Sect inner power training he gained from Ma Yuk in Mongolia, then surely Chief Shih shouldn't have done worse.

[Han Solo]

I think the answer is yes.

He only learned about 12 stances and was paralyzed for so long, and he still gave Sing Kwun so much problem.

Imagine what he can do with a full HL 18 Palm, and not paralyzed.

Han Solo

[Ken Cheng]

I think the answer is yes.

He only learned about 12 stances and was paralyzed for so long, and he still gave Sing Kwun so much problem.

Imagine what he can do with a full HL 18 Palm, and not paralyzed.

Han Solo

All right.

That still leaves the question of why Chief Shih had such a hard time learning the palms when even 18-year old Gwok Jing could pull it off. In terms of intelligence and inner power level, Chief Shih had a great advantage over the 18-year old Gwok Jing, didn't he?

[flamer]

I always questioned GJ's ability in learning full XL18Z at such a young age and excuses for his internal. I guess its the will of the author.

But it may be possible that when Shi Huolong attempted it, his internal was not enough and was crippled, while his internal can still increase.

[AnhHung]

Could SHL's copy of the HL18P be faulty? Since there is no manual, could someone in the line after YLQ have misunderstud or misheard the technique and the result is that the original and correct techique was lost for ever? And this resultet in SHL' fire deviation?

[muidi]

Logic problem: Chief Shih's failure to learn the Hong Lung 18 Palms was attributed to his lack of inner power, but given the good fight he gave Sing Kwun even without the complete set of palms, the implication is that Chief Shih's inner power wasn't that bad. The chief's inner power should have been at least somewhere near the level of Sing Kwun's, which is quite a high level in the HSDS era even if it falls far short of the levels of Greats such as Cheung Mo Gei and Cheung 3 Fung.

For certain, Chief Shih must have had greater inner power than Gwok Jing did during LOCH when Gwok learned the complete Hong Lung 18 Palms from North Beggar Hung 7 Gung, right? If 18-year old Gwok Jing, who hadn't even begun to train in the 9 Yum Jen Ging inner power techniques, could learn the complete Hong Lung 18 Palms with little more than the meager Cheun Jen Sect inner power training he gained from Ma Yuk in Mongolia, then surely Chief Shih shouldn't have done worse.

Chief Shih's inner power must be higher than the 18-years old Gwok Jing. Chief Shih could almost match up against Sing Kwun, who already learned the Shaolin 9 yang.
I think Jin Yong made a mistake here.
That the techniques passed wrongly makes sense, but there are no hints in the 3rd edition of HSDS for that. But in the first edition of HSDS we get some hints. There ZWJ learned 3 palms (not sure whether it was 3 or 4) of the Dragon Palms. When ZWJ demonstrated these 3 palms infront of Z3F, Z3F praised the first two palms but he said the third palm was somehow wrong.

[muidi]

Here the changes from 1st to 2nd edition of HSDS (source wuxiapedia.com):

(4) The 18 Dragon-Defeating Palms (Xianglong Shiba Zhang)
In the revised edition, when young Zhang Wuji was grabbed by a beggar wielding a poisonous snake, he was rescued by Yin Susu providing a distraction (slapping Zhang Cuishan, tossing sailors overboard, etc) and Yu Lianzhou taking advantage of it.
In the original edition, things were played out in considerably different way. The young Zhang Wuji lashed backwards with a palm, which struck the beggar in the back and paralysed him. Yu Lianzhou's attempts to free the beggar left him (the beggar) screaming in pain. When questioned about the move, Zhang Wuji said that it was 'Shen Long Bai Wei', or 'The Mystical Dragon Swings its Tail' from the 18 Dragon-Defeating Palms! Zhang Wuji's strike was supposed to be fatal within two hours, but Yu Lianzhou and Zhang Cuishan spent all night saving the beggar's life. But the beggar's martial arts were ruined.
It turned out that Zhang Wuji learnt the technique from Xie Xun, who picked it up from 'an old man' (Ed: 'a recluse of the lakes and the rivers', to be exact). Zhang Wuji knew only three moves: Shen Long Bai Wei (The Mystical Dragon Swings its Tail), Jian Long Zai Tian (Watching the Dragon in the Fields) and Kang Long You Hui (The Proud Dragon Has Regrets). When Zhang Wuji sparred briefly with Zhang Sanfeng, the latter praised the first two moves as 'good', but the last one as 'inadequate'. Apparently, the 'old man' who taught Xie Xun did not fully understand how to use these palm techniques. Zhang Wuji used the palms extensively during his youth.

[yittz]

Give H7G some credit, remember how much Mu Nian Ci gained by spending time with H7G for 4 days?

[Single Whip]

I would also give GJ some credit for his exceptional talents. It's not stated or obvious in the novel because he is always labeled as slow, but I don't think HQG would just teach anyone his most advanced skill regardless of how good HR's cooking skill is.

I always believe that HR's persuasion through food is one factor, but the other is that HQG must see something special in GJ as well.

[ChronoReverse]

GJ took a long time to learn the first stroke properly but after the first few, he sped through the rest. I mean, he learned the last three strokes in a couple hours.

[flamer]

Talent and anything else, internal energy is still a main requirement for learning XL18Z.

Lol @ ZWJ with XL18Z. I think its a good idea JY changed that, otherwise the Trilogy would be dominated by XL18Z.

[CC]

I always believe that HR's persuasion through food is one factor, but the other is that HQG must see something special in GJ as well.

H7G was surprised that it took GJ so slow. Hinting that he was expecting an average student to master the stances even faster.

Like Ken and some others, I think this inner-strength requirement of XL18Z is a goof-up by Jin Yong.

[Ken Cheng]

H7G was surprised that it took GJ so slow. Hinting that he was expecting an average student to master the stances even faster.

Like Ken and some others, I think this inner-strength requirement of XL18Z is a goof-up by Jin Yong.

I think the goof-up goes the other way. I think Jin Yong mentioned on more than one occasion that Hong Lung 18 Palms requires a large power base to learn, and it makes sense given what we know about its best and most famous practitioners (i.e. Kiu Fung, North Beggar Hung 7 Gung, and Gwok Jing from late-LOCH onwards).

I think where Jin Yong screwed up was having Gwok Jing learn it so early, with such little inner power.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Actually, although Hong Qigong was initially frustrated at how slowly Guo Jing learned the first palm, afterwards he was impressed that Guo Jing was able to learn the rest. After he realized that Guo Jing had been trained for two years in Quanzhen-style internal energy, he said to himself, 'No wonder.' The exact quote was,

"Indeed, indeed -- you didn't learn that in any short span of time," Hong Qigong said. "Otherwise, how would you be able to learn my '18 Dragon-Subduing Palms' if you didn't possess a good nei gong basis?"

Therefore, my personal opinion is that although Guo Jing's internal energy reserve was certainly inferior to that of Shi Huolong, the quality of his internal energy was much higher, as it was that of pure, orthodox Quanzhen internal energy, as transmitted to him by the head disciple of Wang Chongyang, as opposed to whatever mishmash crap Shi Huolong knew. This allowed him to do more with less. Don't look down on Quanzhen internal energy! Hong Qigong also says that,

"I am convinced that the proper ancestry of all orthodox wugong is through Quan Zhen's teachings."

[ChronoReverse]

I keep mentioning about the later palms but it's like nobody listens~

I hear you though, RWX =)

[flamer]

Does this mean that any ol' Quanzhen disciple taught by the Quanzhen 7 (at least under Ma Yu etc) should be able to learn XL18Z? That is assuming they put enough effort and obviously spent more than 2 years (often much longer).

[CC]

No, I just don't buy the fact that GJ with 2 years of training in QZ inner cultivation can be more suited then SHL for learning the full set of palms.

And like 6MSJ, I don't get why you need any more inner power to learn 2 palms/fingers compared to 1. Its not like you use all 18 palms at once.

[Ren Wo Xing]

How about 2 years of training in QZ, AND the personal instruction of Hong Qigong?

[flamer]

How about 2 years of training in QZ, AND the personal instruction of Hong Qigong?

Then perhaps the requirement for strong internal for XL18Z is overrated? Effective tutor can help one learn anyway.

[tape]

It can't be as strict as QKDNY then. That one specified that it was like lifting a heavy hammer, you could either do it or not do it. Advanced tutelage wouldn't do much good.