Misguided feminism in Wuxia

[Wu Wudi]

This is most likely going to get me a lot of flak but I have to say that I hate seeing powerful female warriors in Wuxia. I am all for advocacy of female power but not when it is obtained through the emasculation of men and distortion of reality. I strongly believe that women characters can have just as much impact in the Wuxia world as male characters. They just shouldn't have to cause such impact in the same manner as their male counterparts.

The idea of women becoming top martial artists is simply not grounded in reality. Saying that a woman can be a MA elite is the equivalent of saying that a WNBA player can become just as good as NBA player. It's simply impossible and it's not sexist to make such an observation. When I see Wong Chong Yang get his butt kicked by his girlfriend or Zhang Ziyi beating down brawny men in Kung Fu flicks, I feel just as insulted as when I hear people talking about how women soccer players are just as good as their male counterparts. It's not just an insult to my male pride, it's also an insult to my intelligence. Women should feel angry as well when they're being judged by the same standards as men and when their supposed feminist supporters have to bend the truth in order to portray women in a positive light. It's unfair and sexist to expect that women can only feel good about themselves only when they can duplicate every feat of men.

There are physical, biological differences which prevent the two genders from performing certain tasks equivalently. A female sprinter will never be as fast as Usain Bolt while a male gymnast will never be as graceful as Nadia Comăneci. Just because men and women should have equal rights, it doesn't mean that they should have equal abilities in every category. Portraying men and women in literature as being equivalent in every manner is not only a disservice to the recognition of the unique capabilities of both genders, it also shows a lack of respect for the intelligence and gender sensibilities of the readers.

[PJ]

Temujin (the poster) must be proud of all this!

First of all, women are NOT equal to men in wuxia! You're crazy if you think they are represented equally. For example, how many of Jin Yong's top 20 fighters are female? Like 2. Female champions such as Li Qiushui and Tianshan Tonglao are rare exceptions in wuxia.

Even if what you claim is true (which I'm not sure it is true)--that all women are physically weaker to men in some areas--I don't see the big deal with stretching things in fiction. All the martial arts, stories, and events in wuxia are stretched and exaggerated. So what if women can be super strong in fiction? Men in real life can't drink 25 pounds of hard liquor while not feeling the slightest tipsy, but they do so freely in wuxia.

By the way, Wang Chongyang got his butt kicked by his girlfriend because she cheated. Zhang Ziyi can kick men's *** in kung fu flicks because (presumably) of her high internal energy. I don't see the oddity with either case.

[Guo Xiang]

Uhh okay. But who are the female characters in particular, Wudi?

[GuGu]

your real problem is that you need to learn to separate reality from fantasy-wuxia-fiction.
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[Candide]

Feminism is misguided in general, not just wuxia. Still, wuxia is a fantasy so please let the women and the manginas indulge themselves a little, coz reality hurts.

[Wu Wudi]

Temujin (the poster) must be proud of all this!

First of all, women are NOT equal to men in wuxia! You're crazy if you think they are represented equally. For example, how many of Jin Yong's top 20 fighters are female? Like 2. Female champions like Li Qiushui and Tianshan Tonglao are rare exceptions in wuxia.

Even if what you claim is true (which I'm not sure it is true)--that women are physically weaker to men--I don't see the big deal with stretching things in fiction. All the martial arts, stories, and events in wuxia are stretched and exaggerated. So what if women can be super strong in fiction? Men can't drink 25 pounds of hard liquor while not feeling the slightest tipsy in real life, but they do so freely in wuxia.

The fact that you're hesitant about beliving in women's inferior strength is why I have issues with the type of feminism that was mentioned in my OP. Women having lower physical limits than men is an universal truth that no one should be afraid to mention. Marion Jones on steroids was the fastest woman on Earth yet her best time wouldn't have qualified her for her state's finals for high school boys.

Yes, Wuxia is fiction but that doesn't mean that realism should be ignored by the authors or the readers. A good novel approaches topics that pertain to society and culture in a realistic manner and makes the reader ponder about them. Many Wuxia novels are known for their deep, contemplative discussions of universally relevant subjects such as filial piety, patriotism, frendship and love. Sadly, many Wuxia authors don't display the same sensibilities with gender issues. Wuxia women are often misogynistically characterized as skanks in the GL tradition or are excessively idealized by Wuxia writers' unrefined attempts at feminism.

Uhh okay. But who are the female characters in particular, Wudi?

I guess it would be any woman who is more powerful than Huang Rong. Physically, HR is about as powerful as a woman should get in the Wuxia world, which is still pretty strong. Like elite female athletes, HR was physically superior to the average male but she wasn't superior to the average MA expert. That is not a strike against HR or other female MA experts. Even though HR was physically weaker than many of her male opponents, she often held her own through the ingenious applications of her martial arts, knowledge of combat strategies and guile. It's belivable when HR acted as a sidekick to young GJ when he was fighting OYF or QQR.

[Single Whip]

In that case you must also have issues against old people being mischaracterized as well (or as I would call it Misguided Geriatrism).

In wuxia it was often portrayed that the older one gets the more powerful they became. This is clearly not grounded in reality.

[PJ]

The fact that you're hesitant about beliving in women's inferior strength is why I have issues with the type of feminism that was mentioned in my OP.

I revised my statement a bit after you started replying:

Even if what you claim is true (which I'm not sure it is true)--that all women are physically weaker to men in some areas....

Sure, in general women are physically weaker than men, but that doesn't necessarily mean all women are weaker than any man.

I guess it would be any woman who is more powerful than Huang Rong. Physically, HR is about as powerful as a woman should get in the Wuxia world, which is still pretty strong. Like elite female athletes, HR was physically superior to the average male but she wasn't superior to the average MA expert. That is not a strike against HR or other female MA experts. Even though HR was physically weaker than many of her male opponents, she often held her own through the ingenious applications of her martial arts, knowledge of combat strategies and guile. It's belivable when HR acted as a sidekick to young GJ when he was fighting OYF or QQR.

But "strength" in the wuxia context is not a physical one, but one of internal energy. Physical strength doesn't hold a candle to internal strength in Jin Yong universe. Is there any evidence that women cannot cultivate as much internal energy as men?

[Ren Ying Ying]

In that case you must also have issues against old people being mischaracterized as well (or as I would call it Misguided Geriatrism).

In wuxia it was often portrayed that the older one gets the more powerful they became. This is clearly not grounded in reality.

to top that off, if judging by biological physical strength only, wouldn't that mean Ma Zhuoguang should be the most powerful character in ROCH. Well, at least we know who's should be the most powerful now--obviously shouldn't be some 50 yr old, a handicapped, nor some geriatrics who should be in nursing homes.

[Wu Wudi]

But "strength" in the wuxia context is not a physical one, but one of internal energy. Physical strength doesn't hold a candle to internal strength in Jin Yong universe. Is there any evidence that women cannot cultivate as much internal energy as men?

Is there any scientific evidence that show a human being is capable of cultivating internal energy?

Seriously, I don't know because the concept of QI is pretty complicated. Awhile back, I actually did ask in this forum the question of what's the difference between external and internal strength. I think some Kung Fu expert said that they're basically related -- the internal strength is reflected by the external strength.

Some examples in JY literature supported this theory while others refuted it. For example, YG's ability to wield a heavy object was directly linked to his increase in internal strength while Yideng's immense internal power didn't seem to be indicative of great physical strength.

Because there aren't conclusive evidence as to what internal energy actually is, I can only speculate that women are less capable of cultivating internal energy than men since internal energy is a physical trait like strength, speed and agility. However, based on real world evidence, I think it's safe to say that a female warrior would never be able to train herself to reach the levels of top male warriors.

In that case you must also have issues against old people being mischaracterized as well (or as I would call it Misguided Geriatrism).

In wuxia it was often portrayed that the older one gets the more powerful they became. This is clearly not grounded in reality.

That's an entirely different topic but I would say that JY is cognizant of the debilitating effects of aging. I haven't read enough GL or other authors to know where they stand on the effects of age on combat ability but JY often mentioned that older people are more susceptible to running out of stamina. There are many examples in JY's stories of older characters who were defeated or even died because their bodies simply got worn out.

Remember that Chinese idiom about the the oil running dry and the light going dim or something to that effect? (I can't type in Chinese, sorry ) Sadly, that saying held true for many old warriors in Wuxia.

[Guo Xiang]

Is there any scientific evidence that show a human being is capable of cultivating internal energy?

Seriously, I don't know because the concept of QI is pretty complicated. Awhile back, I actually did ask in this forum the question of what's the difference between external and internal strength. I think some Kung Fu expert said that they're basically related -- the internal strength is reflected by the external strength.

Some examples in JY literature supported this theory while others refuted it. For example, YG's ability to wield a heavy object was directly linked to his increase in internal strength while Yideng's immense internal power didn't seem to be indicative of great physical strength.

Because there aren't conclusive evidence as to what internal energy actually is, I can only speculate that women are less capable of cultivating internal energy than men since internal energy is a physical trait like strength, speed and agility. However, based on real world evidence, I think it's safe to say that a female warrior would never be able to train herself to reach the levels of top male warriors.



That's an entirely different topic but I would say that JY is cognizant of the debilitating effects of aging. I haven't read enough GL or other authors to know where they stand on the effects of age on combat ability but JY often mentioned that older people are more susceptible to running out of stamina. There are many examples in JY's stories of older characters who were defeated or even died because their bodies simply got worn out.

Remember that Chinese idiom about the the oil running dry and the light going dim or something to that effect? (I can't type in Chinese, sorry ) Sadly, that saying held true for many old warriors in Wuxia.

It seems like you are more of talking about the real world rather than fiction, which is what wuxia and Jinyong's all about.

I think this topic is over and done with.

[Wu Wudi]

It seems like you are more of talking about the real world rather than fiction, which is what wuxia and Jinyong's all about.

I think this topic is over and done with.

Like I implied before, the choice between reality and fantasy in fiction is a false dichotomy. A well written piece of Wuxia fiction should have a good balance between the two.

[Ren Ying Ying]

That's an entirely different topic but I would say that JY is cognizant of the debilitating effects of aging. I haven't read enough GL or other authors to know where they stand on the effects of age on combat ability but JY often mentioned that older people are more susceptible to running out of stamina. There are many examples in JY's stories of older characters who were defeated or even died because their bodies simply got worn out.

Remember that Chinese idiom about the the oil running dry and the light going dim or something to that effect? (I can't type in Chinese, sorry ) Sadly, that saying held true for many old warriors in Wuxia.

It's not a different topic. It's the idea of how much real life biology relate to fictional wuxia mechanics. In real life, how many 50+ yr olds can win olympic medals (in events that require vigorious activity, unlike shooting)? In JY, 90 & 100+ year olds can be the best fighters. Go figure.

[Wu Wudi]

It's not a different topic. It's the idea of how much real life biology relate to fictional wuxia mechanics. In real life, how many 50+ yr olds can win olympic medals (in events that require vigorious activity, unlike shooting)? In JY, 90 & 100+ year olds can be the best fighters. Go figure.

Actually, in real life, old fighters could possibly triumph over much younger men. George Foreman won the heavyweight boxing title at the age of 45. Randy Couture, a mixed martial artist, is still fighting at 45 and has many recent triumps over much younger fighters. Yip Man, even in his 60s, was said to have been dominant over his young disciples.

As a person gets older, explosivess is lost but the physical strength can still be maintained. It's why a 50 yr old man with proper conditioning can lift much more than a younger man.

Also, how is the issue of age not a different topic? I'm just talking specifically about the treatment of gender in Wuxia. It was never my intent to make an all-encompassing argument about realism in Wuxia.

[Ren Ying Ying]

Actually, in real life, old fighters could possibly triumph over much younger men. George Foreman won the heavyweight boxing title at the age of 45. Randy Couture, a mixed martial artist, is still fighting at 45 and has many recent triumps over much younger fighters. Yip Man, even in his 60s, was said to have been dominant over his young disciples.

As a person gets older, explosivess is lost but the physical strength can still be maintained. It's why a 50 yr old man with proper conditioning can lift much more than a younger man.

Also, how is the issue of age not a different topic? I'm just talking specifically about the treatment of gender in Wuxia. It was never my intent to make an all-encompassing argument about realism in Wuxia.

are you saying 50 yr olds can life over ALL younger men or SOME younger men? Plus, 50 yr olds and 90-100+ yr olds are still quite a difference.

[Wu Wudi]

are you saying 50 yr olds can life over ALL younger men or SOME younger men? Plus, 50 yr olds and 90-100+ yr olds are still quite a difference.

All I'm saying is that there are many real examples of elder males defeating highly competant younger men in tests of physical ability. I've seen many 50-60 yrs old easily benching over 300 pounds in the gym. Most men would never be able to reach that level in their lifetimes.

With regards to your point about truly old men, like those who are 90 and above, I've mentioned before how they are negatively impacted by their ages. There's a fine distinction between being a great MA practitioner and a great fighter. Z3F, in his golden years, was still the greatest MA practitioner of his era but that doesn't necessarily mean he was still the best fighter. While Z3F would still have been fearsome in a short exchange, his disciples were often concerned about his ability to handle a lenghty fight. Those concerns were legimitate because old martial artists have been shown many times to run out of steam during lengthy battles. Going by JY's work, it would seem that he would agree with the notion that one's combat ability decreases in the advanced years of life.

Anyways, like I said before, I think we have gotten completely sidetracked from my topic. Even if I were to agree with you that age is portrayed in a very unrealistic manner in Wuxia, how would that affect what I'm saying about the treatment of feminism in Wuxia? Two wrongs don't make one right.

[bliss]

The main point of focus should be internal energy. Tianshan Tonglao and Li Quishui became weak and withered old hags after they transmitted all their internal energy. I definitely don't think internal strength is equatable to external strength because all the strength in the world wouldn't allow you to generate palm wind or invisible qi swords ...

Also, don't forget that qinggong is a factor as well. The strength of a woman is completely irrelevant if she could stab you in the throat before you could even blink.

[PJ]

Anyways, like I said before, I think we have gotten completely sidetracked from my topic. Even if I were to agree with you that age is portrayed in a very unrealistic manner in Wuxia, how would that affect what I'm saying about the treatment of feminism in Wuxia? Two wrongs don't make one right.

There's nothing "wrong" with stretching things in fiction. In fact I would say that's the fun of it. You might not like this specific case but it looks like you're the odd one out.

[Wu Wudi]

There's nothing "wrong" with stretching things in fiction. In fact I would say that's the fun of it. You might not like this specific case but it looks like you're the odd one out.

Stretching of truth in fiction is fine as long as it is done for a justifiable reason. Wuxia characters could perform incredible feats because that made the stories more exciting to read. Why exactly do Wuxia authors feel the need to portray women warriors as being equivalent to their male counterparts? Does it make the story more interesting or does it empower women to think that they can beat men in duels? I would argue that it does neither.

[Ren Ying Ying]

You don't have to like the idea...everyone has their own cup of tea. But you can't deny the fact that the idea is about as much grounded into reality as the rest of wuxia. What goes for one, goes for the rest.

All I'm saying is that there are many real examples of elder males defeating highly competant younger men in tests of physical ability. I've seen many 50-60 yrs old easily benching over 300 pounds in the gym. Most men would never be able to reach that level in their lifetimes.

With regards to your point about truly old men, like those who are 90 and above, I've mentioned before how they are negatively impacted by their ages. There's a fine distinction between being a great MA practitioner and a great fighter. Z3F, in his golden years, was still the greatest MA practitioner of his era but that doesn't necessarily mean he was still the best fighter. While Z3F would still have been fearsome in a short exchange, his disciples were often concerned about his ability to handle a lenghty fight. Those concerns were legimitate because old martial artists have been shown many times to run out of steam during lengthy battles. Going by JY's work, it would seem that he would agree with the notion that one's combat ability decreases in the advanced years of life.

Anyways, like I said before, I think we have gotten completely sidetracked from my topic. Even if I were to agree with you that age is portrayed in a very unrealistic manner in Wuxia, how would that affect what I'm saying about the treatment of feminism in Wuxia? Two wrongs don't make one right.

the difference is that 50-60 yr old men benching more than the young dudes are uncommon in the real world (and yes, there are also women in real life who can lift 300+ lbs--and yes, they are also uncommon in real life).
however, it appears in the wuxia realm that it is not only commonplace for 50 yr olds to be better than 30 yr olds, but rather the accepted norm.

Forget ZSF. Zhou Botong (100+) & Huang Yaoshi (90+) were able to match a 36 yr old Yang Guo to a standstill (let's not get into the specifics for the sake of the argument). Now I'd like to see a 100+ yr old even come close to a healthy and fit 36 yr old.

And if physique and stength is so important, then there is no way in hell that the likes of Duan Yu can catch up to Xiao Feng.