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Thread: Do you think there is life after death? And if so, can we prove it?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghaleon View Post
    The terms are as well known to Christians and Catholics as Kobe is to basketball fans. Sometimes people do use Christians to refer to Catholics as well but this is exceedingly rare nowadays. Both do fall under the umbrella of Christianity but it's common knowledge to refer to Christians as Protestants and Catholics as Catholics. This is very common knowledge and almost like slang you can say. The term Christian is usually used in North America and UK where the majority are protestants.

    Aside from the term "Christian", there's also many differences between the two.
    Is this some rule by the majority? There's more Protestants than Catholics so they've redefined the term "Christian" to refer to them and only them by default? I thought for a while there Catholics were trying to claim that they were the true Christians since Protestants were ignoring Papal decrees. Still to treat Christians which cover so many different denominations that believe in Christ as the Savior as synonymous with Protestants is just inaccurate... but I guess that's why we have shows like "Are you smarter than a fifth grader?" that illustrate the wonders of common knowledge.

    The faith argument reminds me of the Applejacks commercial:

    Adult: "Why do you kids like applejacks when they dont taste like apples?"

    Kids: "We just do!"

    I have no problems with believing in something you can't prove or explain. What I'm curious about is why people are fixated on a particular belief? Why not believe in the Olympic gods? The Aztec gods? The Norse (Vanir and Aesir)? The Egyptian gods? The Old Ones? The Living Force? The Singularity? Is the answer "We just do!"? Is it based on which promises a happier ending? Can I propose one where we all become gods with a private little universe to do with as we please? Do I have any takers? I think I will call this religion LoAtIS (Lord of All that I Survey) or maybe Banjoism...
    HK47: Now do you understand the travails of my existence master? Surely it does not compare to your existence but still...
    You: I survive somehow
    HK47: As do I. It is our lot in life I suppose master. Shall we find something to kill to cheer ourselves up?

    -KotOR

  2. #42
    Senior Member Ghaleon's Avatar
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    @ GX,

    Great escape!! So you actually believe that nowadays when a baby is born and no human has died, that means an animal has been killed? But i have to give it to you, that was a smarta$$ reply :d


    Is this some rule by the majority? There's more Protestants than Catholics so they've redefined the term "Christian" to refer to them and only them by default? I thought for a while there Catholics were trying to claim that they were the true Christians since Protestants were ignoring Papal decrees. Still to treat Christians which cover so many different denominations that believe in Christ as the Savior as synonymous with Protestants is just inaccurate... but I guess that's why we have shows like "Are you smarter than a fifth grader?" that illustrate the wonders of common knowledge.
    You're right, it is kind of demeaning. Lot of it stems from tradition. The catholic and orthodox have a long tradition with many saints and philosophies. So they eventually have their own concept of puragatory and heaven. Protestants practically ignore the 2000 year tradition and only focus what's in the bible. Protestants believe they have equal access to God. They don't need some higher authority (like the pope or church) to teach them about God.

    btw, in religious studies and encyclopedias protestants are indeed called protestants. it's only in mainstream christianity and media that the term christians are used to denote protestants. You won't find this in scholarly work.
    Last edited by Ghaleon; 06-17-09 at 11:03 AM.

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    Senior Member fridaythe13th's Avatar
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    Ok, just a brief history. The original word of "Catholics" were to describe the earliest Christians, when the church first started. However, as time goes on, the church had gotten side-tracked from the teachings of the Bible, since the modern Catholics are now more focused on tradition and ceremonies. So the "revolution" movement came about. Those who opposed the church back then established the denomination of Protestant, which essentially just mean to protest against what has now became the Catholic Church. The point of this movement is to bring back Christianity to teachings based on the Bible. So Christianity now include Protestants, Anglicans (still unsure if the two are the same or not), Baptist, Uniting and the Penecostal churches (another recent movement).

    Back to the question, I just don't understand the logic of reincarnation. I mean, why would we be put in this world just so we can forget about it in our next lifetime. About proving it, I don't see how we can prove it without dying...
    我停在原处也许就是为了让大家在累的时候,有个可以回头休息的地方。

  4. #44
    Senior Member Ghaleon's Avatar
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    The point of this movement is to bring back Christianity to teachings based on the Bible. So Christianity now include Protestants, Anglicans (still unsure if the two are the same or not), Baptist, Uniting and the Penecostal churches (another recent movement).
    Yup, that about sums it up.

    Back to the question, I just don't understand the logic of reincarnation. I mean, why would we be put in this world just so we can forget about it in our next lifetime. About proving it, I don't see how we can prove it without dying...
    Well if you look at the Tibet Buddhist tradition, they look for the next Dalai Lama after the death of the current one. They believe in reincarnation so the next dalai lama must have memories of his predecessor. they must pass the "memory test" to succeed as the next dalai lama. there's also people who claim that they have memories from their past lives. I agree though, it's hard to take this at face value. It's almost impossible to prove. But the tibetans supposedly have been doing this for centuries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghaleon View Post
    btw, in religious studies and encyclopedias protestants are indeed called protestants. it's only in mainstream christianity and media that the term christians are used to denote protestants. You won't find this in scholarly work.

    I've taken a year of Theology in undergrad, and worked 400-500 hours cataloging a Liturgy and Life collection in a private library so I just couldn't resist chiming in.
    HK47: Now do you understand the travails of my existence master? Surely it does not compare to your existence but still...
    You: I survive somehow
    HK47: As do I. It is our lot in life I suppose master. Shall we find something to kill to cheer ourselves up?

    -KotOR

  6. #46
    Senior Member Ghaleon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkcser View Post
    I've taken a year of Theology in undergrad, and worked 400-500 hours cataloging a Liturgy and Life collection in a private library so I just couldn't resist chiming in.
    Nice. i've taken world religion classes. So i find the concept of afterlife very interesting.

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    Senior Member kay &!*'s Avatar
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    thank you for enlightening me guys.
    Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

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    Senior Member remember_Cedric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yittz View Post
    How is it not a trump card? You can't 'win' against someone who brings out the faith arguement. What's the point of presenting logic and facts and evidence, when the other person reply with you haven't given faith enough chance, you don't have an 'open heart' to believe, your mind is too rigid etc. etc. How do you know if other people haven't given it enough chance? What equates to sufficient chance? Is it only sufficient when one end up believing in that religion? Do you have enough faith or 'open heartedness' to give science a go, or other religions for that matter?

    What makes you think people who argue with scientific facts lack faith? Such a vague term. I am using it in the context of believing without question rather than only believe when accompanied by overwhelming evidence.
    Well, clearly, because we trust before we see it and some had really see that faith works for them greatly, which is why their faith grew stronger. It's as simple as that. If you had chosen to be trapped in that mindset of seeing it as a, uh, "trump card", prefer to justify it using science and formulaes and, unwilling to give it a chance to see how it works, it will never work for you.

    Science, I had already given it a go.....long time ago. And, don't jump into conclusion that I have not given other religion a chance because I had, for a fact. Even now, I am still willing to understand how their religion works. Surely, I respect them as a form of teaching. Simply put, I'm not born a Christian, which means I was into another religion(s) before.

    So, tell me, have you wholeheartedly been a Christian? If yes, what made you backslide? Pray tell
    What can I say? I'm still standing! No weapon against me shall prosper! I am more than a conqueror!!!

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  9. #49
    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remember_Cedric View Post
    Well, clearly, because we trust before we see it and some had really see that faith works for them greatly, which is why their faith grew stronger. It's as simple as that. If you had chosen to be trapped in that mindset of seeing it as a, uh, "trump card", prefer to justify it using science and formulaes and, unwilling to give it a chance to see how it works, it will never work for you.

    Science, I had already given it a go.....long time ago. And, don't jump into conclusion that I have not given other religion a chance because I had, for a fact. Even now, I am still willing to understand how their religion works. Surely, I respect them as a form of teaching. Simply put, I'm not born a Christian, which means I was into another religion(s) before.

    So, tell me, have you wholeheartedly been a Christian? If yes, what made you backslide? Pray tell
    Because I don't need a book to guide me, although I believe the book does good for a lot of people and the society in general. I don't see the point of having a carrot hanging in front in order for people to behave, although I am glad it works for other people. I don't like the rigid mentality and the unwillingness to question that I've witnessed. I don't like the fact that they won't admit they are wrong about things and still try to control truth.

    The way I view it is religion is the easy way out. It's innate and built in from childhood. Those who are unwilling to question are the ones trapped. I never jumped into conclusion that you haven't given things a chance, rather asking an open ended 'how do you know you've given it enough faith'? What's your define others not working for you?

    Can you explain what faith you are refering to and how faith works for people.
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    Senior Member Ghaleon's Avatar
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    To paraphrase Socrates, wisdom is knowing what you don't know.

    Here's a dialog i made up -

    Person: So do we have a soul?

    Scientist: No,there's no such thing as a soul. we only have a body.

    Person: What about my feelings and thoughts? Isn't that part of the soul?

    Scientist: No, those are just biological processes. That's all they are.

    Person: So there's no such thing as love?

    Scientist: Nope. Love is just a chemical thing.

    Person: What about my love towards my mom?

    Scientist: Your body is doing that to you.

    Person: I thought i have free will.

    Scientist: errr..... your body is causing free will.

    Person: :P


    Essentially the Darwinist viewpoint sees everything as biological. There is no real love. They are just biological processes and nothing more. So your love towards your parents are just biological processes and nothing spiritual. Your love towards your wife or husband is also biological processes and nothing spiritual. Your love towards God (divine love) is also nothing but biological processes. Good and evil? Those are just social concepts explained away by biological processes. There's no Platonic form of good and evil in the Darwinist viewpoint. There's also no free will because everything is cause and effect (which governs the physical & biological universe). If everything is biological, then what's really the point eh?
    Last edited by Ghaleon; 06-17-09 at 10:43 PM.

  11. #51
    Senior Member remember_Cedric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yittz View Post
    Because I don't need a book to guide me, although I believe the book does good for a lot of people and the society in general. I don't see the point of having a carrot hanging in front in order for people to behave, although I am glad it works for other people. I don't like the rigid mentality and the unwillingness to question that I've witnessed. I don't like the fact that they won't admit they are wrong about things and still try to control truth.

    The way I view it is religion is the easy way out. It's innate and built in from childhood. Those who are unwilling to question are the ones trapped. I never jumped into conclusion that you haven't given things a chance, rather asking an open ended 'how do you know you've given it enough faith'? What's your define others not working for you?
    If one continuously throw in question sounding "repelling", does it not give an impression of jumping into conclusion of (on?) another?

    Again, don't make a decision based on the people, go through the path yourself. So, why do you want to go through studies til this stage? Curious, don't hate the books? It's not just obeying the book, it's obeying a teaching. Just like obedience to parents. I was as rebellious as you before I decided to take this path. I would throw in alot of questions against the faith.

    Can you explain what faith you are refering to and how faith works for people.
    I don't want to lead you. Go through it yourself. If you're hungry, you take your meal. Someone else can't take it on your behalf to fulfill your hungar, can they? Same principle.

    Oh, BTW, undeniably, I love science. But I wouldn't mix both. It's academics and religion, whereby one doesn't (and shouldn't) cross path of the other.
    Last edited by remember_Cedric; 06-18-09 at 03:00 AM.
    What can I say? I'm still standing! No weapon against me shall prosper! I am more than a conqueror!!!

    I don't care to sit by the window on an airplane. If I can't control it, why look?

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    Senior Member Guo Xiang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghaleon View Post
    @ GX,

    Great escape!! So you actually believe that nowadays when a baby is born and no human has died, that means an animal has been killed? But i have to give it to you, that was a smarta$$ reply :d
    Well, the theory is that humans can get reincarnated as animals and insects. So, the other way round is probably also true.

    Lots of insects die too, and there are many undocumented species out there waiting to be discovered. And not least of all, lots of living beings die everyday, so if reincarnation is true and working, then that's where all the 'extra' souls come from. The 'extra' isn't really extra when you think of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guo Xiang View Post
    Well, the theory is that humans can get reincarnated as animals and insects. So, the other way round is probably also true.

    Lots of insects die too, and there are many undocumented species out there waiting to be discovered. And not least of all, lots of living beings die everyday, so if reincarnation is true and working, then that's where all the 'extra' souls come from. The 'extra' isn't really extra when you think of it.
    President Obama just killed a fly on national TV yesterday. It'd be ironic if that fly were to someday be reincarnated as some evil dictator who threatens the U.S.

  14. #54
    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghaleon View Post
    To paraphrase Socrates, wisdom is knowing what you don't know.

    Here's a dialog i made up -

    Person: So do we have a soul?

    Scientist: No,there's no such thing as a soul. we only have a body.

    Person: What about my feelings and thoughts? Isn't that part of the soul?

    Scientist: No, those are just biological processes. That's all they are.

    Person: So there's no such thing as love?

    Scientist: Nope. Love is just a chemical thing.

    Person: What about my love towards my mom?

    Scientist: Your body is doing that to you.

    Person: I thought i have free will.

    Scientist: errr..... your body is causing free will.

    Person: :P


    Essentially the Darwinist viewpoint sees everything as biological. There is no real love. They are just biological processes and nothing more. So your love towards your parents are just biological processes and nothing spiritual. Your love towards your wife or husband is also biological processes and nothing spiritual. Your love towards God (divine love) is also nothing but biological processes. Good and evil? Those are just social concepts explained away by biological processes. There's no Platonic form of good and evil in the Darwinist viewpoint. There's also no free will because everything is cause and effect (which governs the physical & biological universe). If everything is biological, then what's really the point eh?
    And how would the dialogue go with a religious follower? Would they display wisdom according to your statement on Socrates?

    P: Do we have a soul?
    R: Yes

    The whole point of my initial post that you replied to is: why can't we say we don't know? I did not discuss evidence for it in any of the post, but rather pointed out the associations were faulty and can be twisted to support any religious belief or bad science.

    What's the point of what? Again you are feeling uncomfortable about the fact that there is a possibility things exist without having a reason. If you ask a child why are there trees, they will say so you can climb them, or make chairs with etc.

    Love, feelings, spirituality are just terms coined by humans. Why is love not love if we find the chemistry behind it? I mean is pain any less painful because we know it's a neural response to a chem/phys stimuli? Is anger less intense and more meaningless because we've identified the brain region responsible for it? Do one feel less special because of the similarities found between us and the rest of the animal kingdom, or any living organism for that matter.
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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yittz View Post

    Love, feelings, spirituality are just terms coined by humans. Why is love not love if we find the chemistry behind it? I mean is pain any less painful because we know it's a neural response to a chem/phys stimuli? Is anger less intense and more meaningless because we've identified the brain region responsible for it? Do one feel less special because of the similarities found between us and the rest of the animal kingdom, or any living organism for that matter.
    The Force was never the same again after Lucas explained in EPISODE I that it was caused by "midichlorians."

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    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remember_Cedric View Post
    If one continuously throw in question sounding "repelling", does it not give an impression of jumping into conclusion of (on?) another?

    Again, don't make a decision based on the people, go through the path yourself. So, why do you want to go through studies til this stage? Curious, don't hate the books? It's not just obeying the book, it's obeying a teaching. Just like obedience to parents. I was as rebellious as you before I decided to take this path. I would throw in alot of questions against the faith.



    I don't want to lead you. Go through it yourself. If you're hungry, you take your meal. Someone else can't take it on your behalf to fulfill your hungar, can they? Same principle.

    Oh, BTW, undeniably, I love science. But I wouldn't mix both. It's academics and religion, whereby one doesn't (and shouldn't) cross path of the other.
    That's such a vague response. It's like answering me with faith. I merely asked how faith works. You brush me off with it can't be explained but only felt. Well then how do you know everyone is feeling the same faith?

    Science and spirituality, at least, can be mixed. Science doesn't necessarily combine mind and matter. Some studies may suggest mind can be made of matter, but that doesn't obsolete the existence of mind.
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    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    The Force was never the same again after Lucas explained in EPISODE I that it was caused by "midichlorians."
    That's subjective, but I see what you mean. Just because an explanation takes away its mysticism doesn't make the explanation less true. This is where the denial comes in and the masking of reality. Initially people hypothesis a wonderful theory, but when data suggests otherwise, they ignore the ugly truth and have faith in the original theory.
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    Senior Member remember_Cedric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yittz View Post
    That's such a vague response. It's like answering me with faith. I merely asked how faith works. You brush me off with it can't be explained but only felt. Well then how do you know everyone is feeling the same faith?
    LOL Why are you so afraid to go through it then? Afraid that you'll fall into conviction of some sort or what? Vague as my reply seems to be, spirituality cannot be possibly justified by words without the best of my knowledge, otherwise the whole purposes would have been defeated, isn't it?

    I would admit that I'm not the best person to "describe" how it works, like a sales-person prompting an item, a professor coaching a class or such. But I know, things happened when its beyond science to make any explanation.

    It's like, I can't show you the fear on Bungee Jump, you have to experience it yourself (if you dare).

    Science and spirituality, at least, can be mixed. Science doesn't necessarily combine mind and matter. Some studies may suggest mind can be made of matter, but that doesn't obsolete the existence of mind.
    I have some knowledge of psychics. I do.

    Mind, matter, maths.
    Last edited by remember_Cedric; 06-18-09 at 06:56 AM.
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    I don't care to sit by the window on an airplane. If I can't control it, why look?

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    Quote Originally Posted by fridaythe13th View Post
    About proving it, I don't see how we can prove it without dying...
    I think you have indeed got the crux of the issue. Are you willing to die to prove it? Though there have been anecdotal reports about rebirth, it is still very much a hypothesis/proposition.

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    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remember_Cedric View Post
    LOL Why are you so afraid to go through it then? Afraid that you'll fall into conviction of some sort or what? Vague as my reply seems to be, spirituality cannot be possibly justified by words without the best of my knowledge, otherwise the whole purposes would have been defeated, isn't it?

    I would admit that I'm not the best person to "describe" how it works, like a sales-person prompting an item, a professor coaching a class or such. But I know, things happened when its beyond science to make any explanation.

    It's like, I can't show you the fear on Bungee Jump, you have to experience it yourself (if you dare).



    I have some knowledge of psychics. I do.

    Mind, matter, maths.
    Go through what? Afraid of what? I am not asking you to define spirituality, I am asking what you are refering to when you use the word faith in your posts and what you mean by it works for people. It's like an advertising slogan, "Faith is best, faith works", faith is best compared to what? what exactly are you refering to when say it works?

    Why be so vague and wishy washy with your replies?

    Thousands of years, it's been the religious groups afraid of questioning, of reasoning, of science.
    Last edited by yittz; 06-18-09 at 07:47 AM.
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