Should school bullying be illegal?

[Sourplum]

In recent cases, several teen suicides have been reported in Australia. A girl in NSW has taken her own life after she received an internet message from one of her friends. There are many more cases of teen suicide due to bullying.

SCHOOL bullying has claimed the life of a 14-year-old boy who hanged himself at home after a series of violent run-ins with schoolmates.
The Daily Telegraph is reporting that the teenager's death, directly linked to the hated practice of bullying, has traumatised his family, school friends and an entire community.

Alex Wildman, a Year 9 student at Kadina High School at Lismore in the state's north, was found dead in his home last Friday. The tragedy has prompted the NSW Opposition to call on the Government to hold an inquiry into bullying issues.

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Bullying is potentially very dangerous to school students. Schoolyard bullying often occurs when teachers aren't around and most teachers and parents would tell their children to ignore the bullying, believing it would stop eventually. Parents seem to be afraid of their children getting hurt more or getting in trouble with authorities.

Some people say we need to teach kids to learn to stand up for themselves, to prevent becoming a victim and taking a stand for other victims. Sure enough, I agree that we can't just sweep the issue under the rug, and as friends or family of a youth in school, we should teach them to be assertive and not put up with bullying.

On the other hand, if your child was in a dangerous school environment where the bullying was PHYSICAL, sometimes saying 'no' may not be the wisest decision, due to the risk of retaliation and further bullying. This makes things complicated and we're left asking 'what can we do?' 'who will make this right?' In this case, I believe the school has a duty of care to reprimand and report these bullies to law enforcement bodies.

As far as I know, harassment is a form of bullying. You can be charged for assault (hence, physical bullying involving violence). What bothers me is that nothing is being done to punish or reprimand bullies. Some are given a stern warning, but most are never met with justice because the victims don't report the bullying, or the school doesn't want to take responsibility of the issue for whatever reason.

Should school bullies be brought to justice in a legal court? If the children are in secondary/high school I think they should be legally viable for any damages and be faced with reasonable punishment like time in detention centers or community work.

[LuNaR]

i thought its always illegal, just not enough enforcers

[Guo Xiang]

i thought its always illegal, just not enough enforcers

I don't think it's illegal, just a frowned upon behaviour.

I think it should be made illegal, but applied depending on circumstances.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Absolutely not. There's no law against being a jerk, which is the way things should be, and for that matter, how would you come to a legal definition of 'bullying' anyhow? If a kid made fun of another kid, you'd send them to juvie for 'emotional harassment'?

Pure nonsense. Bullying should be handled by school authorities, not by the legal authorities.

[Guo Xiang]

Absolutely not. There's no law against being a jerk, which is the way things should be, and for that matter, how would you come to a legal definition of 'bullying' anyhow? If a kid made fun of another kid, you'd send them to juvie for 'emotional harassment'?

Pure nonsense. Bullying should be handled by school authorities, not by the legal authorities.

I believe the subject is on the more severe form of bullying, whereby the behaviour borders or crosses the usual bullying boundary, those that drove students to desperate measures such as suicide.

[NuDaFu]

There's no law against being a jerk, which is the way things should be, and for that matter, how would you come to a legal definition of 'bullying' anyhow? If a kid made fun of another kid, you'd send them to juvie for 'emotional harassment'?

My, prisons would be busting if we started imprisoning 'jerks' .

I think Ren Wo Xing has hit a point here, why management of bullying seems so 'wishy washy'. It is very hard to define the parameters of bullying...like a disease, without first defining what exactly one is dealing with, the steps to treating it lacks organization, sense and accuracy.

However, if a kid was actually caught red-handed 'making fun' of another, sending them to a Psychologist specialising in childhood and adolescent strategies would be suitable to deal with behavioural issues e.g. passive agressive tendencies.

I do agree though, that there is a very severe, extremist form of bullying that can do lasting harm to the victim. I do believe that measures most certainly should be taken to ensure that no human being should have to suffer psychological and/or physical abuse.

Yes, bullying may be difficult to detect or monitor, but when one has the clear evidence of abuse (physical signs, behavioural withdrawal), that is something most definitely tangible enough to serve as grounds for a law to be passed.

It's very sad that youngsters have to resort to suicide to escape their pain from abuse. Although, there are many signs before the act of suicide that one can tell before the act is committed - just not enough people trained to do that. Perhaps it should be mandatory for all teachers to undertake Suicide ASSIST workshops, so that they can be more aware?

In terms of self protection, especially against bodily violence, my personal remedy has always been martial arts . I'm definitely biased based on my own knowledge base, but a little information about the human body helps too - I find the more I understand and know about the human body...from anatomy, physiology, psychology to acupoints, the more focused (i.e. reducing the need for excessive effort, number of strikes) one needs to manage a potential confrontation. The real advantage here is that - depending on what form one learns - a strategy can be taught on how to deal with one-one and/or one-many situations...knowledge which I think one will rarely encounter in bullies. Superior combat knowledge...odds would sooo be in one's favour . I've finished my opinion in true Wuxia form...pleased.

[Sourplum]

Absolutely not. There's no law against being a jerk, which is the way things should be, and for that matter, how would you come to a legal definition of 'bullying' anyhow? If a kid made fun of another kid, you'd send them to juvie for 'emotional harassment'?

Pure nonsense. Bullying should be handled by school authorities, not by the legal authorities.

Believe it or not, the effects of psychological bullying is far greater than we think, and its just as harmful if not more, than physical bullying.

I know two cases in the U.S of a nine and ten year old boy (this was on Oprah) who were called gay and verbally harassed repeatedly to the point where they committed suicide. I think this shows us how serious a problem bullying is, and in this case, yes, in this case, I believe the bullies or parents should be legally viable and made to compensate the poor mothers who lost their sons.

If it was so easy for us to simply ask the school authorities to take care of their students, we wouldn't have case after case of school kids committing suicide from being bullied. You have to realize most schools will not take responsibility for the safety of their own pupils - "It's not our problem - the parents should have raised their children better" "It's not our place to look after your kids" Now tell me that's absolutely nonsense.

The truth is schools aren't doing enough to protect their students. Teachers aren't psychologists, but should have enough common sense to know something is going on and they should at least refer bullies to professional psychologists or at the very least, the school counselor.

And as for 'defining' bullying legally, there's many ways we can identify the behavior as illegal -

- It it leads to a student hurting themself
- It leads to the suicide of the victim(s)
- It affects the mental state of the victim(s) and/or worsens their health condition
- Repeated Harrassment (either physical or pyschological)
- Assault (including shoving, pushing that leads to any degree of injury)

[NuDaFu]

Teachers aren't psychologists, but should have enough common sense to know something is going on and they should at least refer bullies to professional psychologists or at the very least, the school counselor.

"Should" is the operative word here - unfortunately, common sense is not universal, and certain adults have it in different degrees, and may vary depending on the circumstances. It is also quite a relative attribute, I believe - your impression of common sense may be different to mine.

And as for 'defining' bullying legally, there's many ways we can identify the behavior as illegal -

- It it leads to a student hurting themself
- It leads to the suicide of the victim
- Repeated Harrassment (either physical or pyschological)
- Assault (including shoving, pushing that leads to injury)

A definition/parameter to base a policy on needs to be 'definitive'. All 4 do not necessarily hail from bullying.

Self inflicted violence and/or suicide does not necessarily result from bullying. Home conflicts, study pressures, the hard work of getting through puberty...all can lead to depression, agressive tendencies, and therefore violence. Ironically, these very same factors can also 'make' the bully.

I agree somewhat with the last 2 points, but at the end of the day, 'bullying' as a term shouldn't viewed as a causative factor - which seems to be the case.

[Sourplum]

A definition/parameter to base a policy on needs to be 'definitive'. All 4 do not necessarily hail from bullying.

Self inflicted violence and/or suicide does not necessarily result from bullying. Home conflicts, study pressures, the hard work of getting through puberty...all can lead to depression, agressive tendencies, and therefore violence. Ironically, these very same factors can also 'make' the bully.

I agree somewhat with the last 2 points, but at the end of the day, 'bullying' as a term shouldn't viewed as a causative factor - which seems to be the case.

I'm not ruling out the possibility that bullying is not a leading or sole contributor to suicide or self-harm, but it can help push someone over the edge to the point where they do said acts. Think euthanasia - illegal, and punishable by law. If a student 'pushed' another into committing suicide - all other factors aside - this act of bullying can very well come under the umbrella of 'assisted suicide' which is illegal. I think every case of reported bullying should be analyzed closely in a legal context in order to avoid inconsistencies with any laws regarding bullying.

In terms of self protection, especially against bodily violence, my personal remedy has always been martial arts ... The real advantage here is that - depending on what form one learns - a strategy can be taught on how to deal with one-one and/or one-many situations...knowledge which I think one will rarely encounter in bullies. Superior combat knowledge...odds would sooo be in one's favour . I've finished my opinion in true Wuxia form...pleased.

Part of the problem is that parents, especially asians (not to be stereotypical, sorry) have a lot of pride. They don't want their children to be involved in violence or fights, again due to their concern of being in trouble with the law. I'm all for kids learning martial arts or self-defense classes to ward off physical bullying, but parents are reluctant about these things. Some are even enabling their children to be non-assertive by protecting them too much.

[jiang bao]

Bullying gets out of hand because of ineffective school officials and parents. Punishment should be more severe for more serious bullying like physical violence or harassment outside of school. There should be support and counseling for the victims as well as the bullies. But often times, instead of sympathizing with the victims, people side with the cooler people and act contemptuously towards the victs because often times, they don’t want to get on the “cool” people’s bad side and even teachers don’t have sympathy for the victims who are often shy and socially awkward.

I was picked out in junior high school. At times I didn’t want to get up in the morning and go to school anymore, and I dreamt of killing these couple of jerks many times, but at the end of the day, you toughen up and persevere through it. I had zero support and zero counseling. Even most other people would sneer at me and smirk when the jerks were picking on me. Teachers didn’t do anything or even say anything to discourage their open harassment of me and others. Why? Cuz they were scared of the kids themselves.

That said, bullying should not be illegal. The school should take care of the problems, not the government. The government can provide additional funding for counseling programs, but that should be the extent of involvement in bullying.

[Ren Wo Xing]

And as for 'defining' bullying legally, there's many ways we can identify the behavior as illegal -

- It it leads to a student hurting themself
- It leads to the suicide of the victim(s)
- It affects the mental state of the victim(s) and/or worsens their health condition
- Repeated Harrassment (either physical or pyschological)
- Assault (including shoving, pushing that leads to any degree of injury)

Ipso facto, whether or not the behavior is illegal would not be dependent on the behavior itself, but upon the reaction which one has towards the behavior?

If I insult someone who shrugs it off, I wouldn't be committing a crime, but if I insult someone who gets depressed, it would be a crime?

If I get into a schoolyard fight with someone who is insulting me, would I be considered to have committed assault against them? If they push me back, would they have committed assault as well? Or will we argue in court that we were each acting in self-defense?

If a six year old steals a five year old's toys and makes him cry, should the six year old be arrested for affecting his mental state? Obviously, this is an exaggeration and would never happen, but unless the law is written in an extremely tortured manner, this could theoretically actually come up. Don't forget what a litigous nation America is.

Do you see how tricky this is? The law is not the way to deal with this.

There are many things and many factors which cause harm. Not everything which causes harm is illegal, especially emotional abuse. Let me put it this way. If a husband drives his wife to suicide purely through emotional abuse, he cannot be arrested because he had committed no crime. Emotional abuse is not a crime. If that's the case, how can you suggest arresting and/or criminalizing kids for 'emotional abuse'?!

You cannot legislatively force people to be nice to each other, or face penal repercussions.

[Trinie]

Bullying gets out of hand because of ineffective school officials and parents. Punishment should be more severe for more serious bullying like physical violence or harassment outside of school. There should be support and counseling for the victims as well as the bullies. But often times, instead of sympathizing with the victims, people side with the cooler people and act contemptuously towards the victs because often times, they don’t want to get on the “cool” people’s bad side and even teachers don’t have sympathy for the victims who are often shy and socially awkward.

I was picked out in junior high school. At times I didn’t want to get up in the morning and go to school anymore, and I dreamt of killing these couple of jerks many times, but at the end of the day, you toughen up and persevere through it. I had zero support and zero counseling. Even most other people would sneer at me and smirk when the jerks were picking on me. Teachers didn’t do anything or even say anything to discourage their open harassment of me and others. Why? Cuz they were scared of the kids themselves.

That said, bullying should not be illegal. The school should take care of the problems, not the government. The government can provide additional funding for counseling programs, but that should be the extent of involvement in bullying.

Bullying definately gets out of hand and causes a lot more damage then any parents or teachers can ever imagine. I was always bullied when I was attending school and always wondered why teachers and parents did not do much about it. One of my friends was also bullied so when she became a teacher she was really concerned about bullying and taught her students to treat each other well. I just wish that more teachers would care as much as my friend did. I definately would care a lot and teach my students to treat each other well.

I think that it is sad that some teachers were actually scared of the students themselves. Bullying can get really serious and can really affect many students in many ways. Sadly, a lot of times the students are also afraid to speak up as well. I have seen some teachers and principles that actually really care if they hear about it. However, a lot of students are just so scared to say or do anything about it.

I think there should be support and counseling not just for the victims, but also for the bullies themselves. Bullies usually have their own problems so they think that if they bully others, it will make them feel better about themselves. Bullies have psychological problems as well so they always bully others. As much as we feel bad for the victims, I think we should think on the side of the bullies as well. But then again, a lot of them are just plain jerks that have mental or psychological problems that they themselves cannot deal with as well...

[webmaster8753]

Yes, it should be illegal. In fact, it is the equivalent of assault when physical abuse is involved which is illegal. It just doesn't get enforced because they are minors which makes it more complicated.

[Candide]

No of course not! Learning how to deal with arseholes at school is a core part of growing up!

If you're a victim of bullying, the fault lies squarely with your parents for not teaching you how to cope with it. Ignoring the bullies and hoping they leave you alone is not a valid way, which sadly is how most kids are taught. I'm not gonna send my kids to school totally unprepared, expecting that teachers will babysit them for me. They will be well prepared to dish out 10 times whatever some bastards or b!tches clumsily try on them.

Part of the problem is that parents, especially asians (not to be stereotypical, sorry) have a lot of pride. They don't want their children to be involved in violence or fights, again due to their concern of being in trouble with the law.

That's not an Asian thing, it's a yuppie mentality. The Asians who actually have pride will not teach their kids to avoid fights.

Wanna see the yuppie mentality at work? Here it is:

I think there should be support and counseling not just for the victims, but also for the bullies themselves. Bullies usually have their own problems so they think that if they bully others, it will make them feel better about themselves. Bullies have psychological problems as well so they always bully others. As much as we feel bad for the victims, I think we should think on the side of the bullies as well. But then again, a lot of them are just plain jerks that have mental or psychological problems that they themselves cannot deal with as well...

How about we simplify the whole thing and cut out the nonsense?

The weak get bullied by the strong. The strong get controlled by the smart. It's the natural order of things and nothing to do with psychological issues.

Bullies bully the weak & the socially awkward kids *because they can*. Kids are cruel to each other. It's only in modern years that psychologists, to justify their own jobs, have come up with bullsh!t about the bullies having psychological problems so they need more counselling and pills - and hey, so do the bullied kids. More counselling & pills, more money for them.

If you're tough and know how to fight back, physically or psychologically, they will avoid you. It's that simple.

The law, counsellors, teachers, everyone else in society - they are not replacements for PARENTING.

I know two cases in the U.S of a nine and ten year old boy (this was on Oprah) who were called gay and verbally harassed repeatedly to the point where they committed suicide. I think this shows us how serious a problem bullying is

That's not a bullying issue. That shows a serious problem with the lack of proper parenting (as well as Oprah's helping to create new generations of walking vaginas)!

Being called "gay" shouldn't even be a problem to begin with, and the kids should be taught various ways to return fire if they're called "gay". Fark, if some arsehole calls me gay, 5 minutes later, he'll be wondering if he himself is a c0cksucker.

There will always be problems that come from the big bad world. Parents should teach their kids to deal with them and stop blaming everyone else!

[Trinie]

Well Candide, if the kids just fight back, then wouldn't that lead to even more problems??? I actually agree with you to an extent because there are times when bullies do stop bothering kids that have the strength to fight back. However, that is NOT always the case and the kids that are the victims usually do not have that courage and strength to fight back. Do you think that kids always listen to their parents??? I don't think so...You make it sound like things are always so simple when in reality it is not.

[Candide]

Well Candide, if the kids just fight back, then wouldn't that lead to even more problems??? I actually agree with you to an extent because there are times when bullies do stop bothering kids that have the strength to fight back.

More problems? Like what? If you can fight back - and the mentality of showing them that you can is more than the actual fight - they will not bother.

However, that is NOT always the case

Do you have any experience in fighting back or you're just guessing?

and the kids that are the victims usually do not have that courage and strength to fight back.

I'd tell the kids that if you have no courage nor strength to stand up to evils, bend over and take it and stop b!tching.

There can't be all winners in life, regardless of what our politically correct schools are trying to brainwash kids with.

Do you think that kids always listen to their parents??? I don't think so...

Kids may pretend to be cool & sh!t and don't care about what their parents have to say generally, but when the sh!t hits the fan and they need protection from life, they will always turn to their parents. If they're getting their arses kicked at school and their parents can provide the protection & guidance (as they bloody should), those little sh!ts will turn into the most obedient kids known to mankind.

You make it sound like things are always so simple when in reality it is not.

Things really are simple. They are only complicated when people are trying to avoid the real issues instead of facing them head-on.

[ChuckC]

Under limited circumstances, I think it's fine to impose criminal penalties on bullies... But we're talking SERIOUS acts of actual criminal behavior, in which the kid is near adult-age and clearly knew better. Sandbox fights, stealing lunch, or name-calling doesn't count.

For everything else, standard school policies and parental involvement generally can keep it at bay. The important thing is that the victims actually report patterns of bullying (which they often don't, and that's why it becomes such a problem).

[jiang bao]

More problems? Like what? If you can fight back - and the mentality of showing them that you can is more than the actual fight - they will not bother.



Do you have any experience in fighting back or you're just guessing?



I'd tell the kids that if you have no courage nor strength to stand up to evils, bend over and take it and stop b!tching.

There can't be all winners in life, regardless of what our politically correct schools are trying to brainwash kids with.



Kids may pretend to be cool & sh!t and don't care about what their parents have to say generally, but when the sh!t hits the fan and they need protection from life, they will always turn to their parents. If they're getting their arses kicked at school and their parents can provide the protection & guidance (as they bloody should), those little sh!ts will turn into the most obedient kids known to mankind.



Things really are simple. They are only complicated when people are trying to avoid the real issues instead of facing them head-on.

It depends. If the bully is your run of the mill “tough kid,” then fighting back is fine, even if you get you’re a$$ kicked, you might earn some respect along the way. But if the bully is hardcore, part of a gang, fighting back is stupid unless you are willing to join a rival gang or something.

[Trinie]

More problems? Like what? If you can fight back - and the mentality of showing them that you can is more than the actual fight - they will not bother.



Do you have any experience in fighting back or you're just guessing?



I'd tell the kids that if you have no courage nor strength to stand up to evils, bend over and take it and stop b!tching.

There can't be all winners in life, regardless of what our politically correct schools are trying to brainwash kids with.



Kids may pretend to be cool & sh!t and don't care about what their parents have to say generally, but when the sh!t hits the fan and they need protection from life, they will always turn to their parents. If they're getting their arses kicked at school and their parents can provide the protection & guidance (as they bloody should), those little sh!ts will turn into the most obedient kids known to mankind.



Things really are simple. They are only complicated when people are trying to avoid the real issues instead of facing them head-on.

You really simplify things way too much...You live in your own little world that is away from reality. If you wonder, YES I do have experiences of fighting back. I can tell you that once I did and guess what happened??? That mean bully gathered their friends together and threatened to beat me up and things got ugly... Luckily, a teacher saw it and stopped it or I honestly don't know what would have happened to me. The day after, one of them advised me not to fight back or else I would get my butt kicked. Therefore, from that day on... I never dared to fight back again or else things would have just gotten worse and worse....Another incident was when I tried to ignore this girl, but she kept bothering me so I finally had the courage to stand up to her. I then got into trouble just because I did....After that, she still bothered me so fighting back did not help me at all. It made things worse for me.

But I do agree that sometimes fighting back does help and you show the bully who is boss if they are trying to show that they are the "tough kid". My younger brother usually stood up to bullies like that so they never dared to mess with him again. However, not everyone is as brave as my little brother. He once told me that this one guy hit him so he hit him back and then he was the one that ended up chasing that guy. He had to runaway from my brother even though he was the "bully" at first and "tough kid". However, cases like that don't happen often from what I have experienced.

[Dennis Chen]

Bullying has existed since time immemorial.

My question is: why are kids so apt to commit suicide now?