Gwok Jing vs. Kiu Fung: as military leaders

[Ken Cheng]

Gwok Jing spent a great amount of his adult life as the commander of vast military forces. In his twenties, he was an important flag-ranking officer in Genghis Khan's Mongolian army, leading sieges against the Jin Empire and its Mohammadean allies. Later in life, he led Seung Yeung Fortress' resistance against Kublai and Mongke Khan's Mongol invasion forces, holding them off for decades.

Kiu Fung was the leader of the Beggar's Union, a veritable army of 300,000 beggars spread across Sung China. Later, the Khitan king gave Kiu Fung an important position in the Khitan army, even planning on having Kiu Fung lead the Khitan invasion of Sung.

If the two great heroes were to meet in battle with equal military forces, who would prevail?

[wang23]

Gwok Jing spent a great amount of his adult life as the commander of vast military forces. In his twenties, he was an important flag-ranking officer in Genghis Khan's Mongolian army, leading sieges against the Jin Empire and its Mohammadean allies. Later in life, he led Seung Yeung Fortress' resistance against Kublai and Mongke Khan's Mongol invasion forces, holding them off for decades.

Kiu Fung was the leader of the Beggar's Union, a veritable army of 300,000 beggars spread across Sung China. Later, the Khitan king gave Kiu Fung an important position in the Khitan army, even planning on having Kiu Fung lead the Khitan invasion of Sung.

If the two great heroes were to meet in battle with equal military forces, who would prevail?

I would have to go with Gwok Jing based on the War Manual of Yue Fei. Gwok Jing was able to overcome all odds and hold off a fierce competent Mongolian army for many years.

I believe the Khitan king gave Kiu Fung an important position in the army to thank him for his aid during the rebellion and the fact that he was his sworn brother and not to do with his abilities to lead an army. And the invasion on Sung...I'm not really sure, but would it have to with testing where Kiu's loyalty lies???

[Ken Cheng]

I believe the Khitan king gave Kiu Fung an important position in the army to thank him for his aid during the rebellion and the fact that he was his sworn brother and not to do with his abilities to lead an army.

It's probably a bit of both. King Yeh Lut Hung Gei obviously held his sworn brother in high esteem, but that alone would not have been adequate for the king to grant Kiu Fung authority over military forces whose performance would determine the future of the Khitan nation. Something in Kiu Fung's abilities as a leader must have also stricken the king as being qualities he needed in the commander of Khitan forces in battle against the Sung.

And the invasion on Sung...I'm not really sure, but would it have to with testing where Kiu's loyalty lies???

It would not surprise me if the king did have such an ulterior motive.

You are right, however, in that Gwok Jing's abilities as a military leader are a known quantity, whereas Kiu Fung's military leadership is not something we can find much support for in DGSD.

[wang23]

It's probably a bit of both. King Yeh Lut Hung Gei obviously held his sworn brother in high esteem, but that alone would not have been adequate for the king to grant Kiu Fung authority over military forces whose performance would determine the future of the Khitan nation. Something in Kiu Fung's abilities as a leader must have also stricken the king as being qualities he needed in the commander of Khitan forces in battle against the Sung.



It would not surprise me if the king did have such an ulterior motive.

You are right, however, in that Gwok Jing's abilities as a military leader are a known quantity, whereas Kiu Fung's military leadership is not something we can find much support for in DGSD.

I think Yeh Lut Hung Gei was also impressed with Kiu's martial talents. Kiu was able to best him and at one point was his captive. He later then single handedly turned the tables on a what seemed to be like a hopeless scenario with Yeh Lut Hung Gei trapped and his family held as POWs.

[Ghaleon]

How about Genghis Khan vs Yue Fei? Who is a better military leader?

[pannonian]

How about Genghis Khan vs Yue Fei? Who is a better military leader?

Genghis was brilliant tactically, strategically and administratively, not only winning his battles, but conquering and building an empire that lasted and even expanded after his death, all from meagre beginnings. For sheer scope of achievements, only Alexander the Great compares to Genghis, and Alexander started with a unified kingdom.

[Ghaleon]

Genghis was brilliant tactically, strategically and administratively, not only winning his battles, but conquering and building an empire that lasted and even expanded after his death, all from meagre beginnings. For sheer scope of achievements, only Alexander the Great compares to Genghis, and Alexander started with a unified kingdom.

yeah i agree. i guess yue fei is known mostly for war tactics. genghis khan is more of an empire builder and conqueror.

[CC]

yeah i agree. i guess yue fei is known mostly for war tactics. genghis khan is more of an empire builder and conqueror.

If Yue was like Genghis, he would have stomped Kaifeng, then turned the army south and kicked the Gaozong out of his throne and put Qin Hui's head on a pike.

[Ghaleon]

If Yue was like Genghis, he would have stomped Kaifeng, then turned the army south and kicked the Gaozong out of his throne and put Qin Hui's head on a pike.

... with that being said, Genghis was a good administrator and empire builder. He was definitely one of the most influential people of the millenium.

[pannonian]

If Yue was like Genghis, he would have stomped Kaifeng, then turned the army south and kicked the Gaozong out of his throne and put Qin Hui's head on a pike.

If Yue was like Genghis, he would have been persecuted in his early life, then fought back with a mixture of politics, vision and sheer will to be in a place to be given a commission by the emperor. After doing the emperor's bidding, he'll find that he's been played against his rival, and will thus manoeuvre himself into more power, then kick the emperor off his throne, taking his place and ending all internal conflicts. With Song effectively unified, he'll begin looking for conquests, conquering the Jin and pacifying the barbarian tribes to the north. Once the north had been calmed and settled, he'll look towards the riches of the Muslims, beginning with the Khwarezms, but preparing the way for war with the Caliphate. Such is the utter dominance of Yue-Genghis and peace inside his territories that he'll feel secure enough to send a general with a sizeable army on an expedition thousands of miles away in his stead, and give him freedom to complete his brief however he liked. By the time Yue-Genghis dies, his country will be more powerful than at any previous point in its history, and his successors' main concern is whom to conquer next.

NB. there are references to the original events in LOCH. On the request of its oppressed people, Jebe was given a tumen (10,000 troops) with which to liberate a Georgian kingdom from its ruler, one of Genghis' old rivals who'd made his way there. Together with his subordinate Subedei (yes, that Subedei), Jebe did this, then scouted further to the west to see if the lands there were worth conquering, before returning to Mongolia to lay down his commission. This expedition later inspired Ogedei's campaign in Russia and eastern Europe, ostensibly led by Genghis' grandsons (principally Batu), but under the effective command of Subedei.

[kyss of the sword]

yue fei was a great general who was unfortunate to serve under a wicked emperor who had him executed. if he had chose, he could have become the emperor of china and possibly defeated the jins.

xiao feng had great leadership abilities, and he frequently lead or planned missions to prevent invasions into the central plains. this showed his military capabilites, and when the liao king faced a rebellion, he immediately saw the situation and came up with a solution. a quick mind and capable strategist.