Students of Huang Yaoshi

[muidi]

While reading ROCH I came to following part where YG, Chen Ying and Lu Wushuang were asking Feng Mofeng to make a pair of scissor to fight Li Mochou. There she said that Huang Yaoshi took these students under tutelage:
Qu, Lu, Chen, Mei, Wu and Feng.
Who is Wu? There is no word about him in the Condor trilogy again.
Here the part in Chapter 15:
Cheng Ying saw that when his hammer was in the air, it made half a circle, when it descended onto the anvil, it was tilted and dragged, the hand movements were extremely similar to her school’s “Divine Descending Sword Palm Technique”, she understood further and said, “When Master had spare time, he would talk to me; he talked about how years ago he sent his disciples away from the island, Chen and Mei were the ones who did wrong. Qu, Lu, Wu and Feng were innocent but because of those two they were punished. What was especially tragic was apprentice brother Feng, Feng Mofeng. He was young and had a harsh background; when Master thought about this, he would feel uncomfortable and extremely regretful.”
We know this about Huang Yaoshi’s students (excluding Huang Rong and Yang Guo):
1. Qu is Qu Lingfeng and is killed by a government officer for stealing treasures from the palace.
2. Lu is Lu Chengfeng and created the Cloud Manor which was burned down by Ouyang Feng. He died of old age.
3. Chen is Chen Xuanfeng who was killed by young Guo Jing.
4. Mei is Mei Chaofeng who was killed by Ouyang Feng.
5. Feng is Feng Mofeng who was later killed by Jinlun Fawang.
6. Sha gu is the daughter of Qu Lingfeng and was killed later by Li Mochou.
7. Chen Ying is the last student.

Does anyone know whether Wu is a translation mistake or did he really exist in the novel?

I am wondering whether Qu San at the beginning of Loch is same as Qu Lingfeng. Does anyone know?

[tape]

Yeah Qu San is the same person. I think it was talked about before how that one student never does get mentioned, so I don't think there's too much info to be given on him.

[muidi]

Later in Chapter 15 Jin Yong mentioned for the last time that Wu is Wu Tianfeng. so it cant be a translation mistake. He really existed in the novel.

[tape]

Oh no I didn't mean he didn't get mentioned at all -- I meant he just didn't really get any screentime or any other details mentioned about him.

[kyss of the sword]

wu tianfeng died long before the time HYS made his appearance. when HYS took lu chenfeng back into his school and told mei chaofeng three tasks to accomplish to come back into the school, lu chenfeng told HYS that wu tianfeng died long ago. they were uaware that qu lingfeng had already been killed.

[muidi]

wu tianfeng died long before the time HYS made his appearance. when HYS took lu chenfeng back into his school and told mei chaofeng three tasks to accomplish to come back into the school, lu chenfeng told HYS that wu tianfeng died long ago. they were uaware that qu lingfeng had already been killed.

ah, thanks for the replies. I checked the part again. I read it over.

The part with Huang Yaoshi:

They heard him continue, “Qu, Lu, Wu and Feng, your four martial brothers have endured suffering and hardships because of you. You are to find your brothers Lingfeng and Mofeng, and find out if Mianfeng left behind any family. You are to bring them all to ‘Returning Cloud Manor’ [gui yun zhuang] and let your martial brother Chengfeng take care of them. This is your second assignment.”

I think Mianfeng is here a typing mistake. Must be Tianfeng.

[Dennis Chen]

I'll never understand people's romantic notions of Huang Yaoshi. He could be a real b******. Punishing the innocent?

[kyss of the sword]

he was an eccentric who did things as it pleased him. that is why he is called east heretic.

[Ken Cheng]

he was an eccentric who did things as it pleased him. that is why he is called east heretic.

Everybody knows that, but what Dennis wants to know is why people find this admirable.

[yittz]

Everybody knows that, but what Dennis wants to know is why people find this admirable.

What's the point of people biased preaching to the deaf? The reasons why people admire him is in this forum, he has come across it before. No point repeating it since he's going to turn a blind eye anyway.

All characters make mistakes, including the two characters he openly worship. At least it's clear HYS knows he's wrong and has openly admited, well as he can given his arrogance and pride.

[muidi]

I think one reason is that HYS is extremely protective towards his students. One example is the fight in the Cloud Manor. There he didnt let GJ and the seven freaks pushed MCF around.

[Dennis Chen]

All characters make mistakes, including the two characters he openly worship. At least it's clear HYS knows he's wrong and has openly admited, well as he can given his arrogance and pride.

The 2 people I openly worship are Yideng and Wong Chongyang.

Yideng was a Buddhist.

Wong Chongyang was a Daoist.

Huang Yaoshi was a Legalist based on his own code of laws.

I find very little that is romantic about Legalism.

Also,

Yideng absolutely committed greater suffering. He allowed a little baby to die. Yideng accepted it and gave up his throne and became a monk in repentence. When the opportunity arose again for him to save someone at the cost of his martial arts, he accepted it willingly and openly when he healed Huang Rong.

What mistake did Wong Chongyang make? Ling Chaoying? You can't force a person to love another person. That's just life.

[tape]

Everytime I read that Yideng absolutely committed a wrong crime it it irks me. His lifelong dream was to become the world's best martial artist, and he's been working towards that end for what like 20-30 years at the very least? Suddenly he's forced to give up that dream pretty much because a baby is about to die, a baby whom was produced by adultery against him specifically. I don't think what he chose is wrong and he shouldn't have to "repent for his crimes" because he committed no crime.

If you worked your way up from a poor background into a billionaire, and suddenly a weirdo comes up to you and says here sign away all your assets/money whatever to me or I'm going to stab this baby you'd probably just walk away and call him a weirdo. Then he stabs the baby and kills him. How many people would blame the billionaire? Would he have to repent and give away all his money?

[AnhHung]

Everytime I read that Yideng absolutely committed a wrong crime it it irks me. His lifelong dream was to become the world's best martial artist, and he's been working towards that end for what like 20-30 years at the very least? Suddenly he's forced to give up that dream pretty much because a baby is about to die, a baby whom was produced by adultery against him specifically. I don't think what he chose is wrong and he shouldn't have to "repent for his crimes" because he committed no crime.

If you worked your way up from a poor background into a billionaire, and suddenly a weirdo comes up to you and says here sign away all your assets/money whatever to me or I'm going to stab this baby you'd probably just walk away and call him a weirdo. Then he stabs the baby and kills him. How many people would blame the billionaire? Would he have to repent and give away all his money?

I think the budhist in Yiden kicked in. He regret that he chosed not to save the baby for personal reasons; upcoming tournament and baby result of adultery. Fame, anger and revenge are not the way of a budhist. Thats why he repents.

Personally, I understand why YK(?) asked Yideng to save her baby, but she has no reason to hate him for not saving her baby. Beside, Yideng was still thinking about it (even though leaning against not saving) when she killed her own baby out of mercy.

[pannonian]

I think the budhist in Yiden kicked in. He regret that he chosed not to save the baby for personal reasons; upcoming tournament and baby result of adultery. Fame, anger and revenge are not the way of a budhist. Thats why he repents.

Personally, I understand why YK(?) asked Yideng to save her baby, but she has no reason to hate him for not saving her baby. Beside, Yideng was still thinking about it (even though leaning against not saving) when she killed her own baby out of mercy.

From Chapter 31, Lovers' Handkerchief:

They heard Reverend Yideng continue, ?I could not take it much longer;
several times I wanted to just take the child and treat his injury, but
I kept looking at that handkerchief wrapped around the child?s chest.
The handkerchief with a pair of mandarin ducks embroidered on it, their
necks intertwined with each other. The mandarin ducks had white heads,
symbolizing they would grow old together. But why it was written, ?It?s
a pity not yet old but the hair on the head has turned white.?? As I
turned my head I saw the hair on her temples had turned white, I broke
in cold sweats. At that time my heart turned hard, I said, ?Fine, go
ahead and grow old together; just leave me lonely and cast away in this
palace as an emperor! This is you and your lover?s child; why would I
sacrifice my whole energy to revive him??

She looked at me, her last glance. It was full of blame and hatred.
Afterwards she had never looked at me anymore, but this one look I will
not forget till the day I die. She coldly said, ?Let me go, I want to
hold my child!? She was speaking with authority and determination; it
was as if she was my master, made it difficult for me to disobey.
Thereupon I unsealed her acupoints.

[ChanceEncounter]

Everybody knows that, but what Dennis wants to know is why people find this admirable.

You should know this. There is something glamorous in fiction about people who just don't give a flying ****.

Maybe it's because people's tolerance for evil is substantially higher in fiction than in real life, or maybe it's because people's characters can be revealed more poignantly and clearly by the author, but the reason HYS is popular is probably because he's a flawed individual who acts so irreverently.

[Dennis Chen]

I think Huang Yaoshi is as romantic as a Conquistador.

Sure, any decent writer can come up with a Conquistador that is likable and romantic. Because so little is known about him, Cortes could be written as likeable and even honorable in his own way. But how does that excuse what he did? Obviously, he didn't give a flying f*** about the Aztecs.

[yittz]

I think Huang Yaoshi is as romantic as a Conquistador.

Sure, any decent writer can come up with a Conquistador that is likable and romantic. Because so little is known about him, Cortes could be written as likeable and even honorable in his own way. But how does that excuse what he did? Obviously, he didn't give a flying f*** about the Aztecs.

What do you mean when you use the word romantic.

Nobody is forcing you to like him. Your comparison is so irrelevant, it's like saying YD is like a piece of generic tofu. HYS is a fictional character - he is how Jin Yong describes, not a historical character who has been romanticised or victimised by historical writers. Also HYS isn't primarily known for kicking out his students and that's certainly not why he is appreciated. Chanceencounter already explained why he is popular, it doesn't mean we aspire to have his flawed character or like him if we met someone like him in real life.

Stop judging a fictional character by your own set of moral standards and views, that's not relevant to the fictional setting he was in. You are more obsessed about HYS than I am. I treat it as a joke, because he's interesting; your's is almost pathological after realising more readers like HYS than boring, weak monks like YD or a cow nose that go back on their words.

[Dennis Chen]

Stop judging a fictional character by your own set of moral standards and views, that's not relevant to the fictional setting he was in. You are more obsessed about HYS than I am. I treat it as a joke, because he's interesting; your's is almost pathological after realising more readers like HYS than boring, weak monks like YD or a cow nose that go back on their words.

Chancencounter's reason for the likability of HYS is incomplete in it's generality. All of the Greats were flawed.

And how can my moral standards and views of HYS be irrelevant to the fictional setting that HYS exists in when virtually all of the characters in the novels agree with me? I mean, wasn't Eastern HERETIC a name given to him by the people of Jiang Hu?

Reading something and measuring characters against one another, taking stock of who they are, what they did, how the audience receives them is all part of literary criticsm.

Your ad hominem attack on me falls flat given that my bachelors degree is in Literature. Judging people in novels is what I do for fun. It's why I read and listen to stories.

Ergo, your arguments and attacks make no sense.

[Ken Cheng]

East Heretic Wong Yerk See would be an outre' character in almost any imaginable social context. It's hard to imagine any society in which a character such as he would be "the norm." He's an innately anti-social character.