Are you willing to criticize the great wuxia writers?

[Ken Cheng]

We're all wuxia fans. We wouldn't be posting at this forum if we weren't. Naturally, we have great esteem for the creative minds that gave us these wonderful characters and stories.

That said, do you read wuxia uncritically? What I mean is: do you accept EVERY idea that Jin Yong, Gu Long, or any other renowned wuxia writer ever wrote simply on the authority that they are great wuxia writers and believe that they can do no wrong in their work? Or are you willing to criticize them when you feel that there's some aspect of their story that is flawed?

[patricia n]

i criticize. just because i admire their works doesn't mean that i have to absolutely agree with every concept of theirs.

[xJadedx]

Of course you'd criticize. It'd be pointless if one would just accept everything a wuxia author writes.

[Ken Cheng]

Of course you'd criticize. It'd be pointless if one would just accept everything a wuxia author writes.

We've had folks here in the past who wouldn't accept the slightest criticism of wuxia authors. If ever we pointed out some flaw, it was supposedly always "our" problem (i.e. we weren't smart/cultured enough to appreciate the author), not because the writer had a bad idea or did a bad job presenting it.

[CC]

Well, the regulars here should know my pet peeves.

I have always been complaining about Gu Long and his LYING to the readers in Lu Xiao Feng (Before and After the Duel).

And of course Jin Yong's DG9J bullcrap...

[kidd]

Of course I won't accept every idea a wuxia writer (or any other fiction writer for that matter) wrote just because he/she is renowned. Even for my favourite author, I will sometimes disagree with things he wrote.

We've had folks here in the past who wouldn't accept the slightest criticism of wuxia authors. If ever we pointed out some flaw, it was supposedly always "our" problem (i.e. we weren't smart/cultured enough to appreciate the author), not because the writer had a bad idea or did a bad job presenting it.

I will see this as just different point of view. It's not about willing or unwilling to criticise. Maybe those folks really felt that what the author wrote was right and didn't see any problem with it. So, when someone criticise it as a bad idea, of course they will disagree.

Imho, what is considered bad idea/writing is relative when it comes literature.

[Candide]

What kind of flaws?

If it's the "oh that sh!t can't possibly happen in real life!" type then it doesn't deserve any criticism. It's the author's fictional world. He can make up any kind of bullsh!t he wants.

If it's "that's just poor writing or sheer laziness" type then yes fire your criticisms their way!

[kidd]

What kind of flaws?

If it's the "oh that sh!t can't possibly happen in real life!" type then it doesn't deserve any criticism. It's the author's fictional world. He can make up any kind of bullsh!t he wants.

[deleted] Readers are not supposed to equate escapism fantasy with real life. It's not the problem of the writer if a reader can't differentiate fiction from real life.

Seeing you latest point in the other thread,

Wuxia may be a fantasy, somewhat simplified world but it does reflect our world more than people think.

I guess, I will have to delete the 'agree with you totally' part, since there's some difference in our POV.

[pannonian]

We're all wuxia fans. We wouldn't be posting at this forum if we weren't. Naturally, we have great esteem for the creative minds that gave us these wonderful characters and stories.

That said, do you read wuxia uncritically? What I mean is: do you accept EVERY idea that Jin Yong, Gu Long, or any other renowned wuxia writer ever wrote simply on the authority that they are great wuxia writers and believe that they can do no wrong in their work? Or are you willing to criticize them when you feel that there's some aspect of their story that is flawed?

Read Foxs' translation threads for HSDS, and you'll see people constantly laying into Zhang Wuji, and towards the end, Jin Yong's writing ability.

[owbjhx]

We're all wuxia fans. We wouldn't be posting at this forum if we weren't. Naturally, we have great esteem for the creative minds that gave us these wonderful characters and stories.

That said, do you read wuxia uncritically? What I mean is: do you accept EVERY idea that Jin Yong, Gu Long, or any other renowned wuxia writer ever wrote simply on the authority that they are great wuxia writers and believe that they can do no wrong in their work? Or are you willing to criticize them when you feel that there's some aspect of their story that is flawed?

I'm willing to criticise them, and have done so on numerous occasions. Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only English-speaking person in the world who does it consistently. The vast majority of debate on Jinyong - on this forum and others - is of a very non-evaluative nature from a literary standpoint, and strangely, the same can be said of all the available academic articles in English. From what I've seen of Chinese forums/print, the situation is similar there as well.

It seems that people are either not interested in being critical, or just don't want to. JY in particular has legions of hardcore fanboys who take pride in the number of times they re-read his oeuvre. Even among the non-hardcore, the prevailing perception of his work appears to be as a collection of fight scenes rather than as literature. In this environment, it's no wonder that evaluative topics draw as much of a blank as would questions on directing/acting/scripting at a kung-fu flick convention.

[sniffles]

I don't read anything uncritically, so of course I don't read wuxia fiction uncritically. As much as I enjoy Jin Yong's stories, he isn't the best author in the world (though I admit that my perception of his writing talent may be influenced by the fact that I'm reading translations and not the original language).

It seems that people are either not interested in being critical, or just don't want to. JY in particular has legions of hardcore fanboys who take pride in the number of times they re-read his oeuvre. Even among the non-hardcore, the prevailing perception of his work appears to be as a collection of fight scenes rather than as literature. In this environment, it's no wonder that evaluative topics draw as much of a blank as would questions on directing/acting/scripting at a kung-fu flick convention.

Most people have a hard time separating personal taste from critical evaluation. We like what we like, and we don't like hearing other people dismiss or put down our preferences. Objective criticism is very difficult to do, even more so in something like fiction writing where there are no set guidelines for what makes it 'good' or 'bad' writing.

[Trinie]

Of course we should criticize... Just because we are a big fan doesn't mean that we can't and should not criticize them. It is like those die hard fans of idols who get really mad just when you criticize anyone that they like.... Geez....

[AndyChrono]

Everytime I see a paragraph starting with "其實" in a JY novel I want to shoot myself. It's a wonder I'm still alive really.

[ccchelsea]

Everytime I see a paragraph starting with "其實" in a JY novel I want to shoot myself. It's a wonder I'm still alive really.

i used to worship jin yong... i think it's ok for things in books to be a bit far fetched .... and for the attacks he receives on including real historic characters with fictional ones and some changes to historic facts etc... i think it's fine.. cos I"m a person who'll read up on the real historic ppl & events... i actually like that he mixes them up ... and he's not overly incorrect anyway!

BUT BUT BUT but after his stupid 3rd edition changes...
i'm only a fan of his 2nd books and not of him anymore....
it 's totally BAD & WRONG to change the characters /personalities and plotline of books that's already published and well received with millions of fans around the world...
i accept that changing from series in newspaper /mags etc.. that one would make revisions etc.. but not when it 's already a BOOK!
just make me wanna down lots of beer & cocktails to calm myself down now.... >_<

[thesoothsayer]

I've watched more than I've read, and I tend to give give TV shows more leeway than books. So, I'm not as critical. Since I've started reading JY's work, I've found some of the actions incomprehensible, and plots contrived. I've discussed them with some of my friends who are big fans, and they can't really give any good reasons for them besides attributing to the standard behaviour of people in the wuxia world.

Still, the books are a fun read and a good way for me to improve my Chinese reading skills.

[timeless]

BUT BUT BUT but after his stupid 3rd edition changes...
i'm only a fan of his 2nd books and not of him anymore....
it 's totally BAD & WRONG to change the characters /personalities and plotline of books that's already published and well received with millions of fans around the world...
i accept that changing from series in newspaper /mags etc.. that one would make revisions etc.. but not when it 's already a BOOK!
just make me wanna down lots of beer & cocktails to calm myself down now.... >_<

You are not alone in this. Go have some cocktails to calm down. Like what Mr Jin Yong used to tell someone, stick to whichever edition you like the most.

[Son of Light]

Personally, my view is Wuxia=Fiction=Entertainment.
And thus, I'd say, don't get too serious and too work up over it.
Just relax and enjoy, it's just a story.