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Thread: Theory regarding martial arts level of LOCH/ROCH Greats

  1. #21
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    He thought his strength weakened but his internal deepened, but that doesn't necessarily mean one canceled each other out. He could have gotten stronger internally more than he got weaker physically, which I think is the case.

    And in PJ's quote, H7G thought he advanced greatly without the caveat that he got weaker physically. It would be a bit misleading of JY not to state that since any reader reading that would just take it for what it's worth and believe he got stronger absolutely. And while I don't think HYS got weaker physically and H7G did not, I think that it implies their overall fighting ability did get stronger.
    Last edited by tape; 08-14-09 at 12:47 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    He thought his strength weakened but his internal deepened, but that doesn't necessarily mean one canceled each other out. He could have gotten stronger internally more than he got weaker physically, which I think is the case.

    And in PJ's quote, H7G thought he advanced greatly without the caveat that he got weaker physically. It would be a bit misleading of JY not to state that since any reader reading that would just take it for what it's worth and believe he got stronger absolutely. And while I don't think HYS got weaker physically and H7G did not, I think that it implies their overall fighting ability did get stronger.
    Actually I think it means the overall fighting ability decreased while internal energy increased. Z3F is a classic case. I highly doubt the 110+ Z3F can defeat his earlier self, despite better internal energy.

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    110 is an extreme example. Ability definitely declines with age all things equal, but I think the 50-60-70 range the body hasn't deteriorated that greatly opposed to 80-90-100. IRL, I'd say a very active and fit 70 year old isn't too much worse off physically than a 50-60 year old. But once u get to the 80's, I think the effects are much greater.
    Last edited by tape; 08-14-09 at 02:29 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    110 is an extreme example. Ability definitely declines with age all things equal, but I think the 50-60-70 range the body hasn't deteriorated that greatly opposed to 80-90-100. IRL, I'd say a very active and fit 70 year old isn't too much worse off physically than a 50-60 year old. But once u get to the 80's, I think the effects are much greater.
    Haha 50-60-70 is a HUGE difference.. HYS cannot hope to be near his level when he was in his 50s or 60s during his time in ROCH, when he was close to 80.

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    Pre 16 years he should be less than 70. He was in his early 30's during the first Huashan, 50's during LOCH, and 60's-70 in the beginning of ROCH.

    If age deteriorates someone that much, then HYS should have overtaken the other Greats during some 10 year window, as I think he was 10 or more years younger than people like Yideng, Zhou Botong, and maybe even the others. If he was equal to them during his 30's-50's, then they should be getting weaker while he is either getting stronger or weaker slower.

    The age thing also doesn't make sense with regards to Golden Wheel Monk. I don't remember if his age was given, but I always assumed he was around the age of Guo Jing, perhaps 10 years older but definitely younger than the Greats by a margin. During the 16 year period, he apparently doubled his inner strength (for what its worth) and his age has not caught up to him yet. The Greats kept up with him to a degree, as they were clearly losing but not as much as they should have been if they merely kept the same or regressed as you think so.

    A Golden Wheel Monk who got much stronger internally, and more than likely refined some of his external techniques as well, and was not old enough to be much worse off due to his age was barely overcoming a Great, whom 16 years ago was also just his equal. The Greats definitely had to have improved, and I don't think it's likely at all that they can possibly be equal to their LOCH counterparts if they improved such a significant amount in 16 years while in their 80's. Of my points, I think their keeping up with Golden Wheel Monk pre and post 16 years indicates that they improved significantly, as Golden Wheel Monk did, which means they must have been improving even more significantly during the period between LOCH and ROCH.
    Last edited by tape; 08-14-09 at 03:46 AM.

  6. #26
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    You see, the improvement thing is back to the plateau effect. As I said earlier, the effect does not apply on age, rather it applies on the level one is already on.

    GWM was in his 50s as I remember and considered a prime age. Regarding how the older Greats seemingly managed to keep up with GWM, refer back to my numbers and Greats vs QQR distance. The Greats fought GWM for a precious little number of stances, with HYS only hitting one. I wouldn't be surrprised if even Ci En's palm would have the same effect.

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    Pre-16 years, JLGS~=Guo Jing in internal, who was roughly equal to the Greats.

    Post-16 years, JLGS's power was so great that Zhou Botong didn't even dare to face it head on (as he had against Yang Guo), instead resorting solely to using Kongmingquan to deal with it.

    The main issue is that although JLGS's power increased tremendously, far outstripping that of the Greats (imho), his skillset/techniques/mindset was inferior, which limited him from being able to put that massive power to good use.
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    JLFW was ten yrs older then guo jing. so he should have been about 55yrs old when he died. the peak of his martial artist career.

    MRB and XYS were about sixty when they appeared at shaolin and JMZ should have been around their age too even through his internal cultivation was so good he maintained an apperance of someone in his forties.
    Last edited by kyss of the sword; 08-14-09 at 04:27 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyss of the sword View Post
    JLFW was ten yrs older then guo jing. so he should have been about 55yrs old when he died.
    The Golden Wheel Monk should have been older than that at the time of his death. Gwok Jing started ROCH at age thirty-three, and at least twenty years had passed during the course of the story.

  10. #30
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    The problem I see with the Greats keeping up with GWM is that his inner strength doubled, or at least increased a huge amount, yet they were still near equals. I doubt their techniques improved in the 16 year span, as they pretty much got as good as it gets after using it for the past half century or so.

    Even if GWM had terrible terrible technique and mindset, he still should be able to thrash someone who was equal to him 16 years ago if that person has not improved but rather regressed. The only way this is possible is if GWM would have been thrashed by the Greats pre 16 years, since at this point he still had terrible techniques and terrible mindset, but only equal inner strength.

    I can buy that they improved less than he did but was able to ward off his attacks with superior technique and inferior power, but not that they regressed, while he improved dramatically and they are still roughly on the same level. That just does not make any sense, unless GWM was drastically worse.

  11. #31
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    And a quick question, is there any reason to believe in the plateau effect and the massive drop in improvement besides the need for Wang Chongyang to be equal to them?

    The Greats were in their late 50's at the end of LOCH which is around prime in wuxia for improvement, and in 13 years they only improve by 5%? What about martial arts systems like Quan Zhen where it improves faster the longer you practice it? Guo Jing reached Greats level in his early 30's, but in theory he should be improving faster and faster, and his inner strength driven Dragon Palms should only get stronger and stronger without such a drastic drop in improvement. He should be much stronger after 20 years in ROCH, and if the Greats are anywhere near keeping up with him, they should far surpass Wang Chongyang also.

    I just mean to say your numbers work, but it would be equally easy to assign numbers like 1000 during LOCH, 1200 during ROCH, 1400 during end of ROCH and there would be no novel evidence to dispute that -- all characters would just be adjusted accordingly except for Wang Chongyang. It makes sense for GWM / Guo Jing to improve dramatically as they are at their peaks -- they have to have incredible gains after 16 years. If the Greats are able to keep up, even Ci'en is able to for a whole day, then I don't think it's plausible at all for them to have regressed.
    Last edited by tape; 08-14-09 at 04:49 AM.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    The problem I see with the Greats keeping up with GWM is that his inner strength doubled, or at least increased a huge amount, yet they were still near equals. I doubt their techniques improved in the 16 year span, as they pretty much got as good as it gets after using it for the past half century or so.

    Even if GWM had terrible terrible technique and mindset, he still should be able to thrash someone who was equal to him 16 years ago if that person has not improved but rather regressed. The only way this is possible is if GWM would have been thrashed by the Greats pre 16 years, since at this point he still had terrible techniques and terrible mindset, but only equal inner strength.

    I can buy that they improved less than he did but was able to ward off his attacks with superior technique and inferior power, but not that they regressed, while he improved dramatically and they are still roughly on the same level. That just does not make any sense, unless GWM was drastically worse.
    You see, the Greats were not on the same level as GWM Post 16. They were the Greats/QQR and WCY/Greats level difference, perhaps even slightly more. Even so, GWM cannot hope to just go in and take one of them down in hundred moves or so. Look how long he took with Ci En and QQR was said to lose by half a stance in a long fight fought to the full by Yideng.

    And a quick question, is there any reason to believe in the plateau effect and the massive drop in improvement besides the need for Wang Chongyang to be equal to them?
    That is a good point. Firstly it really disturbs me how some 90 year old men can even hope to win against their younger self in the 50s.
    Also, the thought that WCY is 1/2-1/4 of Post 16 Greats.
    And, a number of lines in ROCH, I'll try to list a number of them

    HYS said he was able to tie with OYF and H7G back in LOCH but he has better internal now despite being weaker. This is Pre-16.

    Yideng saw YG roar on Yinggu and thought to himself he did not have internal energy like that when he was YG's age, now that he is old, its out of the question. Here is the passage

    但自己当日盛年之时,却也无
    这等充沛的内力,此时年老力衰,自更不如;心想这位杨贤侄内力之刚猛强韧,实非当世任
    何高手所能及,不知他如何练来。Yideng made the note that now he is older, he is even farther away from

    YG's internal, compared to when he was younger. Of course this does not include purity and all that, just showing Yideng confessed that he is significantly below standard. This is Post 16.

    Zhou Botong was puffing after some exchanges with YG and saw his power drop. I don't think that kind of symptom was ever shown on Greats. Below:

    两人激斗将近半个时辰,周伯通毕竟年老气血已衰,渐渐内力不如初斗之时

    They have been fighting for almost 1 hour, which is nothing in LOCH standards haha
    The confession was also made for ZBT regarding his old age and weaker stamina.

    HYS made the comment during 3rd Huashan that YG is no weaker than OYF of 当年. Considering he did not off shoot that judgement by 60% or so, YG should be roughly OYF's standard, IMO a bit higher.

    Essentially there is little to prove Greats doubled or so their prowess from LOCH through to end of ROCH except to tying internal energy or power output linearly to fighting power and ignoring age. Also note that tying internal energy linearly to fighting power also builds on the inference of GWM doubling his power (leading to 100% increase in ability) and Greats keeping up with that, which both I have suggested don't have to be the case.
    Last edited by flamer; 08-14-09 at 06:12 AM.

  13. #33
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    I thought the HYS comment was just an off handed remark about the whole Greats thing, but I'm not going to dismiss it entirely as that's just my interpretation.

    But this plateau effect does have merit, as Xiao Yuanshan and Murong Bo did not seem to have improved a super huge amount in 30 years either due to old age I presume.

    I guess my gripe is that the old *** guys are still described to move as fast as the wind and can indeed do so as they are still fending off attacks from people like Yang Guo. But it's plausible that in order to move that fast, they are using up twice the inner energy as before so even though they have more of it, they're burning it up faster.

    But my question is, why there is such a plateau effect even for someone like Yang Guo/ Guo Jing? Yang Guo was extremely close if not already at Great level pre 16 years in his twenties. He should have totally wtfpwned HYS in their competition, or against ZBT after 16 years of training without the old age thing and the fact that he trained nonstop almost everyday in an extremely rigorous method.

    The fact that he didn't totally overwhelm them suggests the Greats improved somewhat, even accounting for their age, in order to match him in any semblance. It makes more sense that Yang Guo / GWM improved A LOT, while the Greats improved a bit, in order to keep them even competitive.

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    And I agree that there is no linear relationship between inner energy and fighting ability, as that would be silly since techniques of course count.

    But if one were to double in power, and the other regressed, while they were comparable before the doubling, it seems very very unlikely that they would be even remotely competitive. LOCH/ROCH/HSDS trilogy focuses extremely heavily on inner power. Someone with almost twice your amount almost never loses, even if it means they are only 125% or 130% of you. If it took place in XAJH, it'd be much easier to believe.

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    Ah as I said a couple of times before, it is not possible for YG/GWM to overwhelm older Greats so easily, even with younger age and more power. Lets put it this way, GWM still took one day and one night to take out Ci En. That's 24 hours. How can the Greats fail so quickly when fighting GWM. May I remind you that Post 16 Greats only fought GWM for a short time. In fact, ZBT was feeling a bit tired after 1 hour with YG.

    The plateau effect, is on the level of a person, not on their age. Even by falling behind a bit, they will still be competitive for quite a long time.

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    I understand your point. I just think that someone with doubled your internal should be able to overwhelm you easily. However someone with only 1.5 your internal would not be able to do so, and you can make up for in technique or by just being defensive. This is what I think is the case for the Greats. They improved, but not as much as GWM, are are noticeably worse, but are holding their ground one way or another. The point is they improved.


    All major and minor skirmishes I remember have the person with 2x the internal winning very handily. If GWM took a whole day to beat Ci'en, then I just have to assume Ci'en improved during the time period also. Not by 2x like GWM, but by SOME amount.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    All major and minor skirmishes I remember have the person with 2x the internal winning very handily. If GWM took a whole day to beat Ci'en, then I just have to assume Ci'en improved during the time period also. Not by 2x like GWM, but by SOME amount.
    Does that include Zhang Wuji against Ah Da, Ah Er, Ah San, or Brightness Peak etc?

    Or Xuzhu vs DCQ?

    Or Duan Yu vs MRF?

    There are plenty of examples of people with vastly superior internal given lots of reasons for choking. We can conclude, or have concluded already that GWM is a big choker.

  18. #38
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    Those comparisons are unfair and you know it. Wuji tried to use Taiji which he just learned on the spot against Ah San. When matching internal, he destroyed Ah Er in like two exchanges. He fought Ah Da with a sword, against with which he was extremely proficient.

    Xu Zhu didn't know martial arts. Duan Yu didn't know martial arts either. Once both got the hang of something, they did quite well.

    Golden Wheel Monk was a choker, but he was also good martial artist to get where he was. He did not develop his power through freak accidents. He trained it fair and square and has plenty of combat experience. I admit he loses a lot because of his mindset, but he is nowhere near Wuji at Brightness Peak or Wudang mountain. He's closer to Wuji at the end of the novel.

    If you can give an example of two skilled fighters where one has doubled the inner power of the other, that would be more relevant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    Those comparisons are unfair and you know it. Wuji tried to use Taiji which he just learned on the spot against Ah San. When matching internal, he destroyed Ah Er in like two exchanges. He fought Ah Da with a sword, against with which he was extremely proficient.

    Xu Zhu didn't know martial arts. Duan Yu didn't know martial arts either. Once both got the hang of something, they did quite well.

    Golden Wheel Monk was a choker, but he was also good martial artist to get where he was. He did not develop his power through freak accidents. He trained it fair and square and has plenty of combat experience. I admit he loses a lot because of his mindset, but he is nowhere near Wuji at Brightness Peak or Wudang mountain. He's closer to Wuji at the end of the novel.

    If you can give an example of two skilled fighters where one has doubled the inner power of the other, that would be more relevant.
    I'll only buy the ZWJ vs Ah San one.

    If you confine the subjects to strictly an internal energy battle between Person A and Person B with twice internal energy, yeah I can't find any.

    That is essentially what you did justifying for ZWJ against Ah Er and Ah Da.

    Xu Zhu when fighting DCQ was already very proficient, no less than Elite level. Xu Zhu had about 8-10 times the internal of DCQ, which should allow XZ to defeat DCQ just by looking at him.

    With XZ/DY examples, I was just trying to point out there are HEAPS of reasons why people with overwhelming internal advantage cannot achieve. Especially the XZ example. For GWM, excuse was also given for him during his fight with Yideng, such that he was greatly distracted by Guo Xiang's death, Huang Rong and eagles. This is more than enough reason why he couldn't perform, just like Xu Zhu underperforming. The level of underperformance is not even as great as XZ's.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by flamer View Post
    Yideng saw YG roar on Yinggu and thought to himself he did not have internal energy like that when he was YG's age, now that he is old, its out of the question. Here is the passage

    但自己当日盛年之时,却也无
    这等充沛的内力,此时年老力衰,自更不如;心想这位杨贤侄内力之刚猛强韧,实非当世任
    何高手所能及,不知他如何练来。Yideng made the note that now he is older, he is even farther away from YG's internal, compared to when he was younger. Of course this does not include purity and all that, just showing Yideng confessed that he is significantly below standard. This is Post 16.
    This is indeed an interesting passage. Certainly raised my eyebrows before. After some discussion, Hanky Panky (aka Black Night Sea) convinced me that Yideng was probably referring to the type of abundant energy, not the overall abundance of the energy. Here is that discussion: http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showpost...6&postcount=10
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