Theory regarding martial arts level of LOCH/ROCH Greats

[flamer]

Okay I’ve been contemplating this issue for quite a while.

The possibility of Greats at end of ROCH being weaker than they were in beginning of ROCH

Let’s start with some numbers

As of last chapter LOCH

All Greats 1000 (OYF wasn’t stronger, he was just displaying weird moves, which took the ITELLIGENCE of HYS/H7G to find out his style. This is similar to ZZR against Wudang Heros)

QQR 900-950

Guo Jing 700-800

As of beginning of ROCH

All Greats 1050

Guo Jing 1050

Clear through GJ vs OYF, OYF vs H7G

GWM at this time 950

Would anyone like to suggest GWM would win out on GJ or other Greats as of beginning of ROCH? We do know GWM was slightly injured by GJ at the First Heros’ Meet. I know of the excuse given for GWM that he was trying to show off but even so…

Also the phrase saying it would require several dozen stances to determine a winner or loser between GWM and GJ. That’s kinda little to be honest. Was this changed in the 3rd Edition?

Let’s just say GWM was given similar novel description as QQR in LOCH.

As of end of ROCH

All Greats 950
QQR 900
Guo Jing 1100
Yang Guo 1100
GWM 1100

As of First Huashan

WCY – 1050 to 1100
Greats - 950

Essentially the Greats to QQR distance. Note the novel treatment of QQR, he was ranked among the Greats, just not quite so. This is consistent with WCY needing 7 days to convince others he was greater.

I would also like to suggest that WCY’s top level was about 1050-1100 which the Greats just reached in their peak, which is NOT at the end of ROCH. This fits better with the author’s intent to keep Greats roughly the same and WCY actually higher if anything. I don’t really agree with end of ROCH Greats being significantly stronger than that in earlier chapters. Another point to note HYS described YG to be “not weaker than OYF from years ago”, which is more consistent with this system.

This is mainly because of age. By the end of ROCH, original Greats were nearly 100 years old with much less stamina. I reckon the prime age of martial arts level is 70s tops.

This also brings in the issue of the DOUBLING OF POWER by GWM. From my system, GWM increased from 950 to 1100. Not quite double but I reckon power cannot be directly translated to overall fighting prowess.

The original Greats had barely any fights in ROCH and it was clear that any one of Yideng or HYS would’ve lost against GWM in a 1 on 1 during their encounter at end of ROCH.

My theory basically means that the magnitude of improvement is not as drastic, like a 100% spike and fighting ability actually drops in old age.

I’ll be happy to hear some of your thoughts on this and maybe examples from the text which do not agree with this, I’ll be glad to analyse that. This is pure speculation and probably not the new norm of rating Greats . Thanks for reading.

[tape]

I'd like to just point out some stuff I disagree with, but not necessarily be able to give full proof right now .

Your system has the Greats from 950 as of First Huashan and 1000 at end of LOCH, and I think that should be pretty off. Consider during the first Huashan the Greats, especially HYS who I believe is the youngest, was only in his 30's, and that should be around the prime for improving your skills. There isn't a real possibility that with a base of 950 he would only improve by 50 points in 20 years time. All the Greats knew they made incredible progress individually, and before they met with the other Greats again, though they had surely overcome the others and possibly even caught up with Wang Chongyang, and to me that indicates at very least a 30-40% increase in their abilities.

OYF developed his Snake Fists, and Yideng his XianTian Gong; H7G completed his Dragon Palms (old edition though), and I think that's definitely above a 50 point increase. At the very least 300-400 if 950 is their level at the time of Huashan. Also, HYS said something to Yang Guo about not reaching the roaring stage until about 30, so he wasn't too much stronger than Yang at the time, and even if he was, that means he made tremendous improvement from 30 to 40, which should indicate he'd make tremendous progress from 40 to 50, and 50 to 60 etc until old age screws it up.

And again a 50 point improvement from LOCH to ROCH seems implausible, as it's been 13 years. This time it's much more believable than from Huashan to end of LOCH, but I still thin it's stretching it a bit as they are still about in their prime. I don't have as strong an argument against, except that I strongly believe that a 5% increase in power seems unlikely for a 13 year span in the prime/slightly after their prime.

Consider that we know GWM and YG both made tremendous improvements over the 16 years, but the Greats were able to more or less be on par with them, being slightly weaker. That just means they almost definitely had to have improved, though not as much as YG and GWM, from pre to post 16 years, so I don't think they could have got weaker since the beginning of ROCH, and certainly not as weak as their LOCH counterparts.

[flamer]

Good point regarding First Huashan and beginning of LOCH.

I believe that another general theory with my theory is the plateau effect. Such that improvement really slows as one reaches a certain level.

The Greats know that improvement is hard to achieve given their level and a 50 point boost (granted, it might be more) is significant enough to pull a Great vs QQR type victory against other Greats. HYS may easily have been thinking that even a 50 point improvement is hard to achieve.

Regarding your point about the new skills the Greats learned/developed, thats also part of the plateau effect, as you can see from XF's example, he was just as deadly using Ancestor Long Fist than XL18Z. YG using not-Sad-Palms palms also fought ZBT to a draw. H7G with his surprising and complex Dog Beating Stick did not do much (if any) better than his fight with OYF on the boat. Hence the awesome techniques did not and will not improve fighters to a large degree. I believe this is mainly due to internal energy.

I think the Greats and QQR difference is really significant in examining the Post-16 Greats and GWM/YG divide. Such that QQR was never considered to be able to win against the Greats, yet he was always considered so very close to them, posing a real threat. This is similar to First Huashan, end of ROCH Greats vs GWM/GJ/YG etc... So it is no surprise that HYS/YD still shocked GWM considering their gap is no larger than Greats' gap with QQR. QQR would have no trouble holding a fight with Greats for hundreds of stances and YD fought for even less than that with GWM.

[tape]

I can agree with the plateau effect, but I don't think it should be the case for Greats who are only in their 30's to 40's. Their martial arts was still pretty raw it seemed, as they probably had not mastered their signature skills to the fullest yet. 30's to 40's seems awfully young for wuxia masters to reach a plateau.

I can see ROCH greats plateauing much easier than end of Huashan ones, as in ROCH they are already in their 50's and 60's and probably not as hungry as they once were. The 2nd Huashan tournament was probably a pretty big letdown, so they didn't care as much. If we were to use your point system, I still believe that end of Huashan compared to beginning of ROCH greats have a huge disparity of at least 30%, and certainly not only 5% or 10%

Ill reply more in depth later, as i gotta run !

[tape]

I'm interested in your thoughts about HYS's comment to Yang Guo about not reaching his inner strength level until 30. It's a rough estimate, as he infused some of his strength in him, and he might have just exaggerated a bit cause he liked Yang Guo also, but it's still interesting. I don't think he really misjudged YG's level much, as he personally helped to heal him and I think that's a pretty intimate test of someone's strength. If that quote is correct, then I'd think the Greats increased 2,3, even 4x times since they were in their 30's (i.e. Huashan or so time) Yang Guo at the time was strong but very very far off from the Greats, especially inner energy wise.

[flamer]

I can agree with the plateau effect, but I don't think it should be the case for Greats who are only in their 30's to 40's. Their martial arts was still pretty raw it seemed, as they probably had not mastered their signature skills to the fullest yet. 30's to 40's seems awfully young for wuxia masters to reach a plateau.

I can see ROCH greats plateauing much easier than end of Huashan ones, as in ROCH they are already in their 50's and 60's and probably not as hungry as they once were. The 2nd Huashan tournament was probably a pretty big letdown, so they didn't care as much. If we were to use your point system, I still believe that end of Huashan compared to beginning of ROCH greats have a huge disparity of at least 30%, and certainly not only 5% or 10%

Ill reply more in depth later, as i gotta run !

I don't think the plateau effect refers to AGE, rather it refers to the LEVEL of one is already at. ie I would expect the plateau effect to hit YG too despite him being in his 30s or 40s. In fact he already hit the plateau effect Pre and During the 16 years as he was say 950 points and he only increased 150 points in 16 peak practicing years at such a young age. If he continued at the pace of improvement as in the few months he spent initially, he would've been way way beyond Great level. This reflects the internal energy plateau and techniques plateau.

Considering the other Greats did not train as hard as YG and did not have the potential to grow as YG in 16 years, it shouldn't be surprising to find them improving by only 50 points in 10 odd years between first Huashan and LOCH.

Of course the numbers are just arbitary for discussion's sake so you can get a picture.

[flamer]

I'm interested in your thoughts about HYS's comment to Yang Guo about not reaching his inner strength level until 30. It's a rough estimate, as he infused some of his strength in him, and he might have just exaggerated a bit cause he liked Yang Guo also, but it's still interesting. I don't think he really misjudged YG's level much, as he personally helped to heal him and I think that's a pretty intimate test of someone's strength. If that quote is correct, then I'd think the Greats increased 2,3, even 4x times since they were in their 30's (i.e. Huashan or so time) Yang Guo at the time was strong but very very far off from the Greats, especially inner energy wise.

Ah refer to my part about GWM doubling his power. I don't think internal translates to ability linearly. YG already had a very significant internal after being healed by HYS didn't he? I think I need to re-read that section again.

[kyss of the sword]

QQR was actually considered a serious contender or the tittle, they did not know why he did not appear at the first tournament, but he, GJ, ZBT and OYF fought inside the stone room before the tournament and each found the other to be a serious fighter. his ability was considered equal to yideng and he might only lose by a move after a thousand moves exchange. he had only faced defeat against ZBT, YG and JLFW. ZBT had his L/R technique which HYS also could not overcome. through QQR faced unfavorable odds when ZBT used L/R technique, he wasn't in danger of losing his life. YG with the heavy sword was his first true defeat. JLFW was his last, and even yideng and ZBT faced great difficulties against him. JLFW at his first appearance exchanged two strikes wth GJ. GJ's proficiency in his palm strikes were slightly above JLFW but JLFW had slightly higher strength{due to a decade more of practice in his inner power(author's words)}. he considered himself to have improved enough to defeat both XLN with L/R technique and YG with heavy sword even through they would have improved from then.

[tape]

Ah refer to my part about GWM doubling his power. I don't think internal translates to ability linearly. YG already had a very significant internal after being healed by HYS didn't he? I think I need to re-read that section again.

His internal was pretty measly compared to the Greats. Not many people in the world had him beat so in a sense it was significant, but it was very very sorely lacking compared to a Great. He was still weaker than Li Mochou at this point internally I believe, and certainly Gongsun Zi and the other Mongolian mercenaries whom became toys in his hands 16 years later. He relied on techniques still.

And I agree that it's not a linear 100% inner strength increase = 100% fighting ability increase, but judging by Yang Guo's inner strength level compared to it 16 years later, it seemingly tripled or quadrupled, which could equate to 100% increase. Either way if the Greats had similar levels to Yang Guo or even half again as strong, overall their fighting ability should be said to be increased by much more than 5-10%. I know you're just throwing out numbers as am I, but I think 5-10% as estimates is much too low.

About the Huashan and LOCH thing, judging by how amazed HYS was when he was watching H7G and OYF fight for the first time, and how sure he was that he definitely surpassed theim, I'd like to say that he definitely improved a huge amount. Of course we can define what a huge amount is, but I'd like to think its closer to 30% than it is 5%.

[kyss of the sword]

before eating the snake gallbladders, YG's internal had built up to the level where he was able to receive one of GSZ's iron palm strike with his own palm and only be pushed back three steps. GSZ even felt some pain from it, and GSZ was at least the level of QQR during LOCH period. YG was supposed to have reached a higher level then GJ at the same age when he fought at the first hero's meeting. the practice on the ice bed, plus learning 9yin, OYF's reverse 9yin and toad stance neigong all had given him a uncommonly sound foundation in internal energy cultivation. Yg was considered a level below LMC who was considered a level below JLFW. assuming each level is exponentially greater/twice more than the previous, YG should have 1/4 the inner strength of a great level. but his inner strength should not be as refined and he had not managed to open up all his accuipoints to the level he could freely send his inner energy through his accuipoints at will.

[flamer]

As I was re-reading the part of HYS vs Li Mochou, I came upon this line

他昔年曾以一枝玉箫与欧阳锋的
铁筝、洪七公的啸声相抗，斗成平手，这时隔了这许多年，力气已因年老而衰减，内功却是
越练越深，李莫愁如何抵御得住？片刻间便感心旌摇动，莫可抑制。

It says HYS' internal energy has increased but strength has decreased. This is still pre-16 HYS who probably cannot defeat himself as of end-of LOCH. It is possible that the Greats' peak was sometime during end of LOCH and ROCH.

When Yang Guo roared, LMC actually thought that was HYS. Perhaps YG already had about half of HYS' internal then.

[pannonian]

before eating the snake gallbladders, YG's internal had built up to the level where he was able to receive one of GSZ's iron palm strike with his own palm and only be pushed back three steps. GSZ even felt some pain from it, and GSZ was at least the level of QQR during LOCH period. YG was supposed to have reached a higher level then GJ at the same age when he fought at the first hero's meeting. the practice on the ice bed, plus learning 9yin, OYF's reverse 9yin and toad stance neigong all had given him a uncommonly sound foundation in internal energy cultivation. Yg was considered a level below LMC who was considered a level below JLFW. assuming each level is exponentially greater/twice more than the previous, YG should have 1/4 the inner strength of a great level. but his inner strength should not be as refined and he had not managed to open up all his accuipoints to the level he could freely send his inner energy through his accuipoints at will.

I got quite a different impression on some of these points. While YG had access to many different martial arts, it wasn't sound, as H7G had stated when describing his and HYS's very different MA philosophies. It meant he knew of lots of different MA ideas, but when he tried to force them together, he fire deviated a number of times, not mentioning some of OYF's base skills which by themselves were severely unsound. That he later managed to combine them all into a coherent MA system was remarkable, and possibly something that none of the original Greats could do, judging by H7G's comment, but it doesn't mean that knowledge was a sound foundation.

Also, I never got the impression that GSZ was that strong in martial arts, when compared with the big hitters. He had an odd internal skill that suppressed his acupoints, and an unusual sword-sabre technique, but they both relied on trickery, and once one got past that, a pre-HIS YG could fight him to a draw. If GSZ got into a fight with a Great or near-Great, he'd be pwned in a matter of seconds.

[pannonian]

When Yang Guo roared, LMC actually thought that was HYS. Perhaps YG already had about half of HYS' internal then.

I think the agreed consensus is that YG managed these feats only because HYS had been pouring his energy into YG to heal him. YG by himself at that point wouldn't be able to do these feats. A better example of YG's internal might be his stabilising of HR's body before the Lu Manor contests.

[kyss of the sword]

YG had the strong points of most of the greats martial arts. OYF's internal cultivation leads to fast gains but lacks in foundation to QZ which will over take after 20yrs. YG later learned ancient tomb and QZ through maiden purity method which led to even faster gains. HYS agitated YG's inner power and caused YG to break through his eight channels and release his vital flow. it was YG's own inner power that had matured. LMC thougth because of the distance and the loudness of the yell, it could only be HYS since she thought YG could not have reached this level yet. if you compare it to his yell when forcing ying gu out of the marsh , the yell might have been as loud, but it was a short yell that ended quickly while at the marsh, he could maintain his yell for quite a while and his yell kept growing in strength.

[pannonian]

YG had the strong points of most of the greats martial arts. OYF's internal cultivation leads to fast gains but lacks in foundation to QZ which will over take after 20yrs. YG later learned ancient tomb and QZ through maiden purity method which led to even faster gains. HYS agitated YG's inner power and caused YG to break through his eight channels and release his vital flow. it was YG's own inner power that had matured. LMC thougth because of the distance and the loudness of the yell, it could only be HYS since she thought YG could not have reached this level yet. if you compare it to his yell when forcing ying gu out of the marsh , the yell might have been as loud, but it was a short yell that ended quickly while at the marsh, he could maintain his yell for quite a while and his yell kept growing in strength.

Other than the yell which LMC heard, for which the most compelling explanation I've found is that it was prompted by HYS's injection of energy, YG doesn't show any particularly notable internal-related feats before his HIS training. OTOH, in the episode of trying to combine the different MA ideas he knew, his numerous fire deviations show that his body couldn't fully make use of these MAs that he knew. He could switch between different external skills, he could use the QZ internal to back other external skills, but he couldn't combine the different fundamentals without fire deviating. It was only later, after his HIS training, and furthermore following his training with the wooden sword, that he was fully able to control these skills.

[kyss of the sword]

he did not fire deviate but fainted because all the different martial arts techniques got mixed up in his mind. it was not an internal cultivation problem. he did not faint again after realizing he could use the techniques according to the situation and had no need to combine them into one form. YG never experienced any fire deviation at all. aside from throwing up a mouthful of blood after hearing XLN say she was going to marry GSZ. his practice with the heavy sword was learning a new skill using his previously learned skills as the foundation. palm of sadness was creating a new skill through hard work with his old skills as the foundation. he can be considered to have mastered those skills from the greats and ancient tomb well before the snake gallbladders. all he need was time to refine his inner strength to reach great level.

[tape]

I think the agreed consensus is that YG managed these feats only because HYS had been pouring his energy into YG to heal him. YG by himself at that point wouldn't be able to do these feats. A better example of YG's internal might be his stabilising of HR's body before the Lu Manor contests.

I think HYS's judgment of Yang Guo's inner strength level should be fairly accurate. He did heal him with his own strength, and a genius and martial arts expert like him should know whether it was because of him. Healing someone with inner strength seems to be a very intimate procedure, and I don't think he could misjudge given that he had to suppress/heal/whatever the hell you do with Yang Guo's energy while transferring his own. The roar might have been prompted, but I think the line where HYS says he did not reach his level until a decade later should be dead on. HYS is not one to give false compliments and downgrade himself to boost another's ego out of courtesy.

[tape]

As I was re-reading the part of HYS vs Li Mochou, I came upon this line

他昔年曾以一枝玉箫与欧阳锋的
铁筝、洪七公的啸声相抗，斗成平手，这时隔了这许多年，力气已因年老而衰减，内功却是
越练越深，李莫愁如何抵御得住？片刻间便感心旌摇动，莫可抑制。

It says HYS' internal energy has increased but strength has decreased. This is still pre-16 HYS who probably cannot defeat himself as of end-of LOCH. It is possible that the Greats' peak was sometime during end of LOCH and ROCH.

When Yang Guo roared, LMC actually thought that was HYS. Perhaps YG already had about half of HYS' internal then.

I think pre-16 HYS is definitely able to defeat his end of LOCH self. I seem to remember a line where H7G thought he improved greatly in ROCH, but I don't remember exactly where.

[PJ]

I seem to remember a line where H7G thought he improved greatly in ROCH, but I don't remember exactly where.

Here:

自华山二次论剑之後，十馀年来洪七公与欧阳锋从未会面。欧阳锋神智虽然胡涂，但逆练九阴真经，武功愈练愈怪 ，愈怪愈强。洪七公曾听郭靖、黄蓉背诵真经中的一小 部份，与自己原来武功一加印证，也是大有进境

[flamer]

I think pre-16 HYS is definitely able to defeat his end of LOCH self. I seem to remember a line where H7G thought he improved greatly in ROCH, but I don't remember exactly where.

Yet HYS thought he was weaker than he was in LOCH despite stronger internal. OYF/H7G thought their martial arts improved but may not be any stronger in battle. It should be the same case as HYS, that their internal has gotten better and martial arts techniques and styles have increased.