Internal Energy: How does it work II

[PJ]

Previously, we discussed several aspects of internal energies (IE), including the metrics, energy loss, and the difference between its origin and acquirement.

However, I'm still not sure about exactly how it works. This is an attempt to understand the overarching framework of internal energy.

Consider the example of Jiumozhi's internal energy AND martial arts depletion following Duan Yu's absorption of his internal power. It was said that his entire martial arts were eradicated. Yet, he seemed to suffer no health damage, which means his life force energy (LFE) was likely not affected by the absorption.

How exactly does one lose his internal energy forever -vs- momentarily? I imagine that if Beiming Shengong simply absorbed as much acquired internal energy as Jiu had, then he could still later build them up again (this is a normal practice after fighters lose much IE after a long fight). Did Beiming Shengong actually go one step further to remove the ports by which IE is generated (such as blocking the necessary meridians from utilizing IE)?

Which begs the question, how is internal energy stored and used? When one achieves a high level in "IE", does that mean they store a lot of it in their dantian, or that they are able to generate a lot of it on the fly, or both, or another way?

[flamer]

Regarding your last question, I think a high level means the availability of stored internal energy and maybe a bit of the generating on the fly part.

[kyss of the sword]

there are two kinds of inner power, the inborn qi and acquired qi. the inborn chi is the life force which is difficult to increase. when characters are introduced with no inner strength, it refers to the second qi which is cultivated by qigong/prana techniques. when you begin to practice the advanced internal cultivation techniques, you can increase the inborn qi as well and combine it with the acquired qi, WCY's XTXG and 9yang shengong, maybe 9yin shengong as well can cultivate the inborn qi which is called preheaven/purple qi. it can also be called pre natal qi or yuan qi in chinese. it is believed that qi can be refined into different types like crude oil can be refined into a range of extracts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi

yideng practiced XTXG(gigantic strength/preheaven xiangong) to increase his inborn qi. WCY died shortly after striking OYF with his XTXG through yiyangzhi. the preheaven qi is the strongest qi in the body but exhausting it can be fatal. there a five types of cultivated qi.

[PJ]

I was wondering why sometimes a heavy breath is required when one is about to unleash a massive attack? Does breathing actually "absorb" internal energy from the air on the fly?

[K2Grey]

Maybe the deep breath helps them line up their chi to deliver the blow or something.

[PJ]

Yeah, maybe.

I wonder when martial artists unleash their internal energies nonstop for hours, are they using the IE stored in their dantian, or are they constantly bringing in new IE (e.g. from the air) ?

When people cultivate internal energy for 30 years, what exactly are they cultivating? Are they cultivating for expanded storage in their dantian? But even the most IE in the world won't last much more than 24 hours of nonstop exertion. So what happens after 24 hours when the dantian is "empty", from what source do they regain their IE?

[CC]

This is a question which the wuxia novels don't quite answer.

The wuxia stories seem to treat internal energy cultivation as some sort of 'generator'. e.g. you cultivate your kung-fu for years and you have this internal energy 'generator' in you which replenishes your chi after you send 15 mins throwing out Dragon Palms.

This of course does not fully explain how stuff like Beiming or Xi Xing destroys your 'generator' when it leeches you. It would appear that BM and XX actually absorbs the 'generator' rather then the 'generated chi'.

OK, back to REAL LIFE. I studied a bit of qigong and the understanding I have is that unlike wuxia stories, your chi is slowly cultivated and absorbed and generated daily thru practice. If you lose your chi (thowing dragon palms, lots of sex etc etc etc), your body does NOT auto-generate it back. You have to exercise/meditate to cultivate the lost chi again.

So for example, if you need 10 weeks to cultivation to store enough chi for an 80 foot Canhe Finger Strike, you throw that strike and its 10 weeks of training before you get to do it again. Sounds crappy eh? I guess thats why the wuxia writers IGNORE it because it makes for a boring plot.

[PJ]

So for example, if you need 10 weeks to cultivation to store enough chi for an 80 foot Canhe Finger Strike, you throw that strike and its 10 weeks of training before you get to do it again. Sounds crappy eh? I guess thats why the wuxia writers IGNORE it because it makes for a boring plot.

Yeah.... if it took 20 years to cultivate enough IE to launch 5000 feet worth of Canhe Finger, and he used that much worth of IE in one fight lasting 10 hours, then he has to spend the rest of his life cultivating for the next big fight

[Dennis Chen]

We take a heavy breath when we utilize our external force, such as when we move something heavy. Why wouldn't we take a heavy breath when we utilize internal force?

Breath is the essence of life. Poor oxygenation of our blood makes us weaker. Better oxygenation makes us stronger. A stronger breath brings in more oxygen.

And 9 Yin should be more similar to XTG than 9 Yang.

[kyss of the sword]

Qi can be said to be acquired from nature and cultivated in the body. it originates first from a single breath that is circulated around the body. the breath gathers energy from the body. as the breath is expelled, the energy is extracted and eventually settles in the organs and marrow of the bones. Internal Cultivation can be considered cultivation of the energy inside the body just like cultivating the crops inside a field. the body extracts energy from external sources and uses it, in the process expelling the energy. the energy comes from the nourishment the body gathers from external sources. food, water, etc. the breathing methods (qigong/prana) allow the body to properly extract the energy from these sources and to store it. the energy is further refined and improves the functions of the body. the amount of energy wasted by the body also reduces. more energy is retained and the amount of Qi in the body increases.

this is a basic idea of how Qi works.

[Snafu3721]

Qi is real martial arts and Chinese medicine is pretty much how Kyssofthesword was describing.

As a practitioner of martial arts, I tend to blend a little of what I've learned from my Sifu with some 'theoretical' ideas when it comes to Wuxia.

So the best way to describe Qi in relation to PJ's earlier query-- Qi is like Magic Points in a RPG game. When you level up, you increase the potential reserve of Qi. And as you acquire new techniques, you find ways to use up higher value MP to do more complex feats

e.g.--

lvl 1 Qi= 50/50 Techniques: high jump (cost 20)
lvl 2 Qi= 70/70 Techniques: high jump (cost 20), Hard punch (cost 40)
.
.
.
lvl 50 Qi= 2000 Techniques: high jump (cost 20), Hard punch (cost 40), etc etc etc, XL18P palm 1 (cost 300)

Of course there are even more complex variables such as type of internal, proficiency of technique (lowering MP cost per execution), regeneration rate, individual stats. But for simplicity sake, that's how I've always viewed wuxia Qigong


To CC: I've also learned Qigong, Taichi, and some rudimentary Chinese medicine. My understanding is different that yours. Qi cultivation is like unlocking potential, rather than a drain on existing reserves. So if I trained like 2 yrs of Qi, it's not like I will loose my 2 yrs worth of qi if I do a singale Taichi palm that can shatter a brick (assuming I coulnd't shatter one before). It's more like after 2 yrs, I have gained the control of the built up reserves in my body to be able to consistenly shatter bricks at a small renewable cost to my qi pool. Although if I shatter too many bricks at once prior to my body being able to regenerate the pool in time, I will hurt my body (aka fire deviate).

[CC]

To CC: I've also learned Qigong, Taichi, and some rudimentary Chinese medicine. My understanding is different that yours. Qi cultivation is like unlocking potential, rather than a drain on existing reserves. So if I trained like 2 yrs of Qi, it's not like I will loose my 2 yrs worth of qi if I do a singale Taichi palm that can shatter a brick (assuming I coulnd't shatter one before). It's more like after 2 yrs, I have gained the control of the built up reserves in my body to be able to consistenly shatter bricks at a small renewable cost to my qi pool. Although if I shatter too many bricks at once prior to my body being able to regenerate the pool in time, I will hurt my body (aka fire deviate).

Same understanding. Just different math. What I meant to say is that when you exert chi, the 'lost' chi is NOT auto-regenerating like in wuxia. You need to cultivate it again.

i.e. It's more akin to Yideng needing years to re-cultivate the energy if he had healed Ying Gu's son. As compared to an exhausted GJ getting all his energy back in 1 day after Dragon Palming the trees.

[Snafu3721]

Same understanding. Just different math. What I meant to say is that when you exert chi, the 'lost' chi is NOT auto-regenerating like in wuxia. You need to cultivate it again.

i.e. It's more akin to Yideng needing years to re-cultivate the energy if he had healed Ying Gu's son. As compared to an exhausted GJ getting all his energy back in 1 day after Dragon Palming the trees.

This is interesting... I would like to hear more about the qigong you've learned. But as for my ideas:

With regards to Yideng/GJ example mentioned above--

There is a difference in context of real life Qi between "Zhen Qi" (aka 先天, Inborn Qi, Pre-natal Qi) as opposed to cultivated Qi (後天, Qigong). I believe that YD would've exhausted his "Zhen Qi" as opposed to GJ only using his "Qi gong" (cultivated Qi).


_________________________
More on Qi and it's application to Wuxia:

The way different shifus explained to me is that we are all born with a certain amount of "Zhen Qi". Some are born with more than others. So in general, those with low "Zhen Qi" means they are 'unhealthy' babies prone to more disease and not quite the prime specimen for Martial Arts. It's kind of like a genetic blueprint of the lifeforce you're born with. The more you have, the more gifted and talented you are physically and qigong wise.

The Zhen Qi is also your life force, when it runs out, a person dies. It is composed of 3 elements- "Jing", "Qi", "Shen" (精,氣,神). The 3 elements can then be broken down to a physical and spiritual (I guess meta-physical?) element; which in turns forms a yin-yang duality of existence. The physical manifestation of Jing is literally "sperm" or 'physical body' (hence why Taoist qigong practicioners often say "no sex during qigong practice"). Physical Qi is "air" or "breath", and Shen is spirit. Using the meta-physical manifestation we get Jing=essence of living, Qi= Energy and mind, and Shen= soul (or simplified in modern western equivalent: mind+body+soul)

Moving along...

Zhen Qi is not only a pool of energy, it's also the gauge of your potential. Best way to describe this is as follows: Assume you have a Zhen Qi (ZQ) pool of 50 units and Cultivated Qi (CQ) pool of the same. This equates to the potential to lean low teir martial arts such as 7 freaks level. And it means you can generate 50 units of CQ a day. Let's say a 7 freaks level technique costs 5 units of CQ to execute, it means you can probably excute 20 techs safely in one day. Anything over and you lead to fire deviation OR converstion of ONE unit of ZQ into 50 units of CQ. If you convert, you gain a immediate boost to your CQ pool of 50 units. But now you have only 49 ZQ and will only generate 49 ZQ a day from now on. (hope this makes sense). Going back to GJ and YD... I believe YD would've drained significantly from his ZQ to heal someone using XTG and YYZ.

However, if one cultivates the 3 elements properly, you can convert CQ back into ZQ. For simplicity sake, let's use the same conversion rate of 50 units CQ= 1 unitZQ. Hence, by practicing and training your internal energy via internal skill sets, you slowly change 50 units of CQ a day into 1 unit of ZQ. Once you accumulate enough ZQ, you "level up" and can learn higher level martial arts that costs new amounts of CQ per technique. In real life, my shifu won't let me learn certain forms or the mantra of forms until he feels my level of Qi and understanding is ready.