Mathematical Consistent Ranking Across Novels

[Dennis Chen]

I would think _any_ decent fighter at that kind of level is capable of feints and tricks regardless of what technique they use.

It would depend on the technique though. HIS is all about attack, attack, attack, initiative, initiative, initiative.

[Ken Cheng]

I would think _any_ decent fighter at that kind of level is capable of feints and tricks regardless of what technique they use.

There's clever improvising of "feints and tricks" on the spot, and then there are elaborately designed systems of fighting based entirely on trickery. These work differently...the latter likely on a much more sophisticated level.

[Dennis Chen]

He is a lousy fighter. He should have made short work of Xuan Ming Elders from the very beginning considering how much stronger he was then they were at every point he met them.

It's pretty stacked against him because if he wins a fight he gets no credit because he SHOULD be beating everybody down, but if he loses one then he's a bad fighter. Unfortunate, but that's just the way it is when you have like at least 5x the internal of everyboy else in the world along with the best techniques in the world. I do blame the novel because it wouldn't be very much fun if he wasn't ever in danger. Though I guess one of the themes is someone like Wuji with almost absolute power still doesn't seek revenge, corruption etc. Still, I don't see the harm in adding a couple baddies that can gave him trouble rather than characters that win through weirdness but are way worse technically.

It's just someone like Xiao Feng or Yang Guo or even Guo Jing doesn't have any of the advantages Wuji has, and yet they consistently perform above Wuji. On one hand you have someone who's known to beat people with greater inner strength and technique, and on the other hand you have someone who's seen to lose to people with much, much lesser inner strength and inferior techniques.

I think it's a question of personality more than the arsenal of techniques and internal power at hand.

Yeah, Xiao Feng has that warrior spirit. He was also vengeful and thoughtless. Which caused the death of Ah Chu. He just attacked and she paid the ultimate price.

That would never have happened to Zhang Wuji. He wasn't vengeful. He wouldn't have just attacked.

[tape]

He wouldn't have attacked because he doesn't seek vengeance, not because he's any more full of thought than Xiao Feng. If he were to go for a killing blow, he wouldn't have fared much better either.

Xiao Feng sought vengeance because he/his family was wronged, and I don't blame him in the context of wuxia and the ideals of the time. Considering how the scene happened, I don't really think Xiao can be considered thoughtless or impulsive or any of that.

With regards to personality, it plays a major role in whether you're a lousy fighter or not. We usually cite that as a reason for GWM and QQR not being able to beat the Greats. A great fighter like Xiao Feng might be more aggressive and spot weaknesses better, and be able to take a simple technique to a higher level. A lousy fighter like Wuji might focus on defense realizing his technique is not awesome, and it might lead to his demise.

[Dennis Chen]

Zhang Wuji's family was also wronged . And he had to see his parents die before his very eyes.

[tape]

I feel like you purposely miss the point of my posts heh. So many times I've responded and I get one sentence replies that doesn't address the point of my post. Maybe I don't communicate my thoughts very well.

But the point of my post was not who suffered more, or who deserves vengeance or not. It was the fact that Xiao Feng was not blinded by vengeance or thoughtless as you said in a previous post. He merely decided to seek vengeance against the killer of his family, which is a societal norm at the time.

Wuji chose not to seek vengeance, but that isn't necessarily better or worse than Xiao Feng's decision (for the time period). It was just a different path.

[CancerLuna]

So your argument roughly goes like this:

1. 3 Du monks = ZWJ
2. 3 Du monks = Great
3. ZWJ > XF

Strawman, that was never my argument. I don't know where you got the fact that I think ZWJ>XF

This is equivalent to saying:

1. A = B (from fact)
2. A = C (from NOWHERE)
3. B > D (where did D come from?)

Your argument has so many holes it can't even be used as a sponge

If only that were my argument.

Your rationale for why ZWJ = Great CANNOT be that Du Monks = Great unless you have some textual evidence that 3 Du monks in formation = Great. And again, where does XF fit in here at all?

And what is your rationale that ZWJ isn't a great? Because he is a bad fighter?
You can be a bad fighter and still be Great level, example GWM.

GWM = Bad Fighter = Great
ZWJ = Bad Fighter = Great
ZWJ = Du Monks
Du Monks = Great Level with their formation

When making a logical argument, you need to link up your thoughts. Right now, you have 3 disjointed thoughts, only 1 of which (ZWJ ~ 3 Du Monks) has any textual evidence, the other 2 thoughts are completely unjustified statements.

You need to refute some real points and stop dancing around the subject.

My argument is that there is NO LOGICAL way Xiao Feng can beat Zhang Wuji in 2-3 stances based on textual evidence they are on the same level martial arts wise.

I never said ZWJ>XF.

... If Zhang Wuji is considered at a "Great" level and he tied against the Du Monks formation, they too together are at "Great" level.

Shouldn't you try to prove why XF can beat ZWJ in 2-3 stances other than
"I think ROCH at 74 and XF at 100 is generous to ROCH and not the other way around."

"Since I refuse to believe that Wuji is all-powerful, I'm going to have to bump down the ming sect warriors"

"I realize the more I talk about HSDS the more I hate everyone in it."

"DGSD is generally a lot more baller than HSDS"

"Evidence as to whether Wuji would beat XF in a FIGHT? Do you really wanna make a poll or a thread on that? Really?"

Or even these two contradictory statements.

Besides the fact that there's NO evidence ZWJ = GJ = YG, and the fact that cross-comparisons in FEATS between novels is incredibly difficult, AND the fact ZWJ has little to NO LDA feats, AND the fact that his most impressive feat (the flying tree) is just... not so impressive in DGSD's setting, AND the fact that ZWJ has no auto-protect, etc. etc.

XF still rickrolled the entire manor, and just because he DIDN'T lda them into submission, doesn't mean he CAN'T.

Lol why don't you use the logic for Wuji too.

It's obvious you're a heavy DGSD fan and an OBVIOUS HSDS hater.

3 Du monks can't even match 1 ZWJ when he's pissed off and serious...

Not sure if you're serious, but they were matching him.

Long post ftw..zxcv

[tape]

Though I do think ZWJ ~= to 3 Du Monks in formation, I think it's akin to the QQR vs the Greats situation, with QQR being the Du Monks. They hold their own very well, but during the last battle, I think it was pretty obvious that if Wuji were to stake it all in an inner power duel they would've died and he would be seriously injured but alive.

[HuntingX]

The difference between what I write and what you write is that I clearly note when I'm making a subjective judgment, while you're still confused about it.

In essence, your posts ALL boil down to the ridiculous line of non-linking phrases I noted earlier. An argument takes the form: A > B, B > C, thus A > C. That's basically how these things work.

You take random statements, string them together in some fashion, then draw a conclusion that makes no sense.

You need to answer these questions:

1. WHY IS ZWJ GREAT LEVEL?
2. WHY IS XF GREAT LEVEL?
3. WHAT IS GREAT LEVEL?

The Du monks are COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT here unless you use THE DU MONKS as a comparison tool. You keep bringing up the Du Monks, but you never use their feats!

Basically, MY SUBJECTIVE opinion is that:

XF > Great Level > ZWJ.

[Dennis Chen]

Some folk will never be able to see beyond their hero-worship.

Wang Chongyang for the win!

Wang Chongyang+9yin = DFBB!

[tape]

I think CancerLuna is just stating that both Wuji and Xiao Feng are Great level because that is the general forum's opinion for the past who knows how long. He states it as a given because we have all accepted it as a given for some time. Not that it's in stone, but it has been argued a lot before and unless you want to bring forth new evidence, I think it is fine for him to use those assumptions.

There are plenty of old threads, but usually the argument boils down to Zhang Sanfeng stating that Wuji's internal was comparable to Guo Jing/Yang Guo's, and was more abundant than his own though less pure. He then receives ultimate martial arts like Taichi, Qian Kun and in general has abilities that not even Greats have like his 9Yang autoprotect. This places him around Great level in terms of technique and inner power.

With regards to Xiao Feng, I can't answer as well, because I personally believe he is stronger than the Greats by a decent but not huge margin.

[HuntingX]

1. If you want to take that statement as given, that is fine, you just have to state it.
2. Taking that statement as given is really really boring, since that forces just about EVERYONE from every book to the same tiny little region. Also, it causes issues with powerscaling involving some characters (DFBB, etc.)
3. Where is this 'consensus?' Half the posts here approximate the fact that ZWJ fails.

As an important note, it's REALLY hard to compare between novels. You can definitely argue that ZWJ APPROXIMATES (on the same level as) the ROCH greats (without their awesomeness). How does this even come close to approximating XF?

Finally, you CAN'T just compare 'peak' feats and state two characters are even. ZWJ's overall performance is so abysmally low that it's really hard to believe he could successfully fight someone at his own internal energy base + technique set.

[Dennis Chen]

While most people think that ZWJ might ultimately lose, just about everybody (except Exodus) considers your assertion that he would lose in 2-3 stances as poppycock.

[tape]

2. Taking that statement as given is really really boring, since that forces just about EVERYONE from every book to the same tiny little region. Also, it causes issues with powerscaling involving some characters (DFBB, etc.)

It wasn't always a given, but after countless debates a general consensus was reached that they are approximately on that level. Look at my join date....I've read years and years of these debates and so have many people here. We don't mean to be boring, but a lot of ideas have just been rehashed and countered effectively at one point or another. I'd love to read new views, but just attacking the view with the most support and years of contextual evidence with no real evidence except your own belief and some logic thrown in is not the way to go either.

Edit: Don't mean to use join date to throw my weight around, as you've been around just as long, but at this point asking questions like Why Wuji is considered Great level (even rhetorically) is a bit trivial as I'm sure you must have read it a million times too.

[CancerLuna]

The difference between what I write and what you write is that I clearly note when I'm making a subjective judgment, while you're still confused about it.

In essence, your posts ALL boil down to the ridiculous line of non-linking phrases I noted earlier. An argument takes the form: A > B, B > C, thus A > C. That's basically how these things work.

You take random statements, string them together in some fashion, then draw a conclusion that makes no sense.

You need to answer these questions:

1. WHY IS ZWJ GREAT LEVEL?
2. WHY IS XF GREAT LEVEL?
3. WHAT IS GREAT LEVEL?

The Du monks are COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT here unless you use THE DU MONKS as a comparison tool. You keep bringing up the Du Monks, but you never use their feats!

Basically, MY SUBJECTIVE opinion is that:

XF > Great Level > ZWJ.

If that is your subjective opinion, why are you making a supposed objective thread.

Actually when you asked for information regarding comparison between Xiao Feng and the greats, I had linked you it, but you dismissed t on the grounds that you simply refuse to.

1. It is generally accepted he is at the great level on this forum. He has Great level internal(what zhang sanfeng said) and he has several great level arts, taichi, qkdny, 9yang. Again just because he is a bad fighter doesn't mean he isn't at the great level.

2. It is also generally accepted that he is at the great level, albeit maybe a bit higher depending on who you ask. Again I linked you threads where Laviathan showed that; Wuji has similar inner power to Xiao Feng, Yang Guo has comparable power to Xiao Feng and also Yidengs voice feat is comparable to Jiu Mo Zhi who is then comparable to Xiao Feng. It is safe to assume they are all on the same level, of course some are better and some are worse.

3. Great Level is Internal and External comparable to that of the Greats in ROCH.

Again, I ask, what is the point of a mathematical ranking when most of your rankings are going to be subjective.

Even then, like I quoted above, you aren't even open to ZWJ being on the same level as the Greats, so its pointless to even have a ranking being so stubborn.

I also wonder if you even read the HSDS novel, many times ZWJ did have a hard time winning but not the to extent that you make him out to be.

Edit:
Until you can get rid of this kind of attitude,

"I think ROCH at 74 and XF at 100 is generous to ROCH and not the other way around."

"Since I refuse to believe that Wuji is all-powerful, I'm going to have to bump down the ming sect warriors"

"I realize the more I talk about HSDS the more I hate everyone in it."

"DGSD is generally a lot more baller than HSDS"

"Evidence as to whether Wuji would beat XF in a FIGHT? Do you really wanna make a poll or a thread on that? Really?"

there really isn't a debate.

[HuntingX]

1. 'just because he's a bad fighter doesn't mean he isn't great level.' Huh? So he's 'great level' in every way but 1, so he's great level? That makes no sense at all
I agree, he has great techniques, and very good internal energy. IT STILL DOESN'T MEAN HE'LL DO WELL IN A FIGHT.

2. Again, that topic you're mentioning I've THOROUGHLY refuted. Please do not bring it up again. JY (bless his soul) doesn't understand middle school physics.

3. So then is RWX 'Great' Level by your estimation?

[CancerLuna]

I agree with you, he is a crappy fighter. I personally think he would lose to probably every great except maybe Qia Qianren but that doesn't mean he will lose in 2-3 stances. Even Qia Qianren against Yideng would take thousands of stances.

Trying to justify Xiao Feng beating Wuji by 2-3 stances is absurd.

Like someone mentioned above(CC?) Xiao Feng probably can't even finish Murong Fu in 2-3 stances, much less Wuji.


GWM and Zhang Wuji are both bad fighters, but they sure aren't below great level.

[HuntingX]

It's nice you ignored the second half of CC's point: it's very possible that the first fight between ZWJ and XF could end in 2-3 stances.

I'm not hellbent on XF taking out ZWJ within 5 stances; in fact if ZWJ takes the fight seriously and defends the entire time, it could take a while. The point is that they ARE NOT on the same 'level.'

Further, if ZWJ would lose to every other ROCH Great, he isn't on their level either

He's marginally lower, as the ranking I have set up reflects.

[Exodus]

i don't believe that ZWJ would lose in 2-3 stances but fighting someone of XF caliber he stands no chance of victory.

[Dennis Chen]

Not sure if you're serious, but they were matching him.

In the last fight, they were losing. They did what all fighters who are near matches ultimately do, they engaged in an internal fight, 3 Du Monks versus 1 Zhang Wuji. Wuji realized he could blow them to bits, as did the 3 Du Monks. So Wuji retracted a bit of his internal and the 3 Du Monks followed suit and slowly, they disengaged from the internal battle with neither side hurt.