Pre-16 Year Yang Guo vs....the other greats!

[CancerLuna]

Well first of all, anyone who is weaponless would be at an advantage fighting someone with a weapon.

Pre16 YG might be able to beat the greats, but it wouldn't exactly be the fairest fight. Give the greats a sword or some weapon to fight with and then you'd be even.

I don't think pre16 YG can beat the greats. He can at most tie them. QQR wasn't at the great's level, although he was near. But he'd lose to the greats in a fight. GWM pre16 wasn't at greats level either. So I think the best YG can do is tie the greats, even with his HIS.

Wouldn't a weaponless person be at a disadvantage?

The only ones who would view it as unfair are novel readers, but will the actual character feel its unfair? Did Great Wheel Monk feel that way and did Qiu Qiaren feel that way?

IIRC Yang Guo was winning against Great Wheel Monk even while standing still and also beat Qia Qianren handily who Yideng could only hope to beat by a half stance.

If we go with the fact that the greats are fairly equal and Qia Qianren and Great Wheel Monk are also about Great Level, it isn't hard to see that Yang Guo would also be able to win against the other greats.

About giving the greats a weapon, I don't think Hong Qigong and Ouyang Feng improved their battle prowess even after using their weapons of choice during LOCH, I doubt it would matter if they use it against Yang Guo(assuming they're still alive).
Guo Jing's best art would be his dragon palms and his battle prowess would be worsened with a sword. That only leaves Huang Yaoshi.

sword vs fist isn't exactly fair. GJ relying on XL18 is still relying on himself. YG relying on HIS = actually relying on something else. The sword isn't part of him. He just uses it.

It isn't sword vs fist that you see as unfair, what you see as unfair is how good the HIS is. Because as you see in the novel, almost every character would rather use their fists.

But no-one's arguing that Guo Jing could beat or even match the Greats at any point in LOCH. Also, IMHO Yang Guo with the heavy sword didn't have that much more internal energy than pre-HIS Yang Guo than is usually supposed. Most of the internal-related feats during the HIS period had a heavy element of HIS in it, even for feats where one wouldn't expect a sword to be used. One barehanded feat that he did, knocking aside Guo Fu's sword with the divine flicking finger, was replicated by Cheng Ying shortly after, and Cheng Ying's execution had greater effect. IMHO Yang Guo learned to channel his energy more efficiently through the HIS during his HIS training, but he didn't really gain much energy as such.

If he hadn't improved his internal energy that much, how could he last an internal energy battle with the Great Wheel Monk? He was nowhere near Great Level Internal to matching(but losing) in internal to a near Great Level.

That shows extreme improvement in the internal energy field.

But the argument really isn't about if Yang Guo can win against them, but their reaction and whether they will dismiss it, which I would say they wouldn't.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Yang Guo had learned elements of 9Yin, Toad Stance, TZST, and Jade Maiden swordplay, but it was specifically stated that he felt the simple HIS techniques to be on a far higher level than all the previous martial arts he had learned.

It's not just that the HIS is a superior weapon; it is also that it is used with a superior technique, which allows YG, at that time a significantly weaker martial artist in terms of being well-rounded, battle-experience, and internal strength, to easily beat Greats-level fighters in actual fights.

[tape]

Couple points:

When I said the older Greats, I meant Yideng and Huang as H7G and OYF had already passed away before HIS was even found so I didn't bother to include them.

Rough and overbearing doesn't mean superiority I agree, but that's again not the question. It's a given that the Greats are superior all round martial artists, but the original question I posed was if they would be defeated or not. It doesn't matter if they're in theory better, or have more experience, or have higher energy; if they lose in a fight, they are beaten and inferior.

What is considered fair and what is considered not fair? If Yang Guo was somehow willing and able to meld the Iron Sword to his body where his severed arm used to be, is that somehow fair now because it is inseparable? Nobody would take advantage him without the Iron Sword, because he can always run and come back another day with it. He is at the level where he can be beaten but not killed even without his sword. (just a random thought, not too important)

Yang Guo's inner strength improved a lot in that one month, he could barely swing his sword a couple times before he was exhausted; later on he can effortlessly fight with it and lift heavy objects and smack around boulders like child's play. Not to mention the pure inner strength duel with Wheelie.


So it seems like the consensus is that Yang Guo would probably win but it's not "fair". I don't think the characters in the novel would necessarily feel that way, as weapons are fair game. He was lucky enough to find it sure; but each of them were probably lucky in their own right. To complain about something isn't something the best do in any field. They usually either deal with it, or accept defeat graciously.

[PJ]

It's not just that the HIS is a superior weapon; it is also that it is used with a superior technique, which allows YG, at that time a significantly weaker martial artist in terms of being well-rounded, battle-experience, and internal strength, to easily beat Greats-level fighters in actual fights.

Yeah, apparently by shoving snow into a Great's face (dirty trick), and by having Xiao Longnu ambush another Great.

Won by superior martial arts? I don't think so. And even if he could beat them fairly, it would be with the help of a weapon, which Jin Yong explicitly said in LOCH that Elite martial artists do not need, which makes Yang Guo not yet an Elite (he did become Elite when he later abandoned the HIS in favor of Sad Palms).

[tape]

Dongfong Bubai needed needles....

[PJ]

That's what people reading the novel would do, but people in the actual novel?

In LOCH, Jin Yong stated that Elite martial artists do not need weapons to be superior; in other words, having a weapon or not doesn't make much difference to an Elite. But it did make a significant different to Yang Guo, so he couldn't be considered Elite martial artist until he developed Sad Palms and moved on from the HIS.

It's like the controversy in sports today: should athletes be allowed to use external technology to enhance their performance? Such as swimmers using the Speedo swim suits. It is extremely controversial.

[PJ]

Dongfong Bubai needed needles....

That's because his attacker used (and completely depended on) a sword, and Dongfang just happened to have a needle in his hand. If Linghu Chong attacked barehanded, does Dongfang Bubai need a needle? Probably not.

[tape]

My point was just that even an Elite will perform better with weapons, contrary to what is said in LOCH. If Ren is already an Elite, then DFBB is much higher and still will perform much better with a weapon. Whether his opponent has a weapon or not shouldn't matter according to LOCH, but that is clearly not the case.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Yeah, apparently by shoving snow into a Great's face (dirty trick), and by having Xiao Longnu ambush another Great.

Won by superior martial arts? I don't think so. And even if he could beat them fairly, it would be with the help of a weapon, which Jin Yong explicitly said in LOCH that Elite martial artists do not need, which makes Yang Guo not yet an Elite (he did become Elite when he later abandoned the HIS in favor of Sad Palms).

He wasn't 'elite' in terms of being as well-rounded, but yes, he was capable of easily defeating elites with the combination of the HIS and DGQB's superior HIS technique.

In his fight with JLGS, even though he was held to be almost immobile by XLN, he still demonstrated unquestioned superiority over JLGS, and it wasn't until JLGS managed to force him into a pure internal strength competition (solely due to his immobility) that he was in trouble. JLGS himself considered it one of his worst defeats.

In his fight with Ci'en, it was specifically stated that after a hundred or so stances had passed, it became clear that Ci'en would eventually lose. The only thing the use of snow to 'blind' him did was hasten the victory. And this was after Ci'en ambushed Yang Guo first with a palm blow that knocked him through a wooden wall.

[CC]

Agreed. What would Hong Lung 18 Palms or Ha Mo Gung be if not "rough and overbearing?"

I don't think something based on the I-Ching and is able to defy physics by 'supposedly' always holding back 70% while hitting for 100% can be considered 'rough'. *

It seems that as time passed from LOCH 1st Edition until DGSD 3rd Edition, JY made some subtle changes to the 28/18 Dragon Palms.**


*I am assuming what makes it The palm technique even ole Sweep's praised is that it manages to be #1 Yang hard hitting while being able to retain its own finesse.

**e.g. Its only in LOCH that you have talk of how DP ignores/breaks techniques by slamming directly through them and how Iron Palms has more techniques/variations. In DGSD, there is no such talk of DP lacking in variation. Instead, we are told about its 30/70 feature and we get to see that it can do stuff like oblique LDA manipulation of objects. All part of the plot I suppose.

[tape]

And as Ren pointed out, HIS is not just a sword it is a technique that he learned through his own smarts too. The condor made him use it and brought him to the area, but let's be real: if the bird brought any of us we wouldn't have learned jack. Credit should be given where credit is due


I don't think real life comparisons are that valid, because they have different mindsets in the novel. Would H7G teach OYF Dragon Palms just to make it fair? Does anybody accuse Zhang Wuji of just being lucky he found 9 Yang inside an ape and then got stuck inside a bag and then found the sacred martial arts of the Ming Cult? They just admire his martial arts even though it's completely luck that all those events happened to him too. I don't see why Heavy Iron Sword is any different. The concept of fairness is not as set in stone as our sporting events today.

[Ren Wo Xing]

My point was just that even an Elite will perform better with weapons, contrary to what is said in LOCH. If Ren is already an Elite, then DFBB is much higher and still will perform much better with a weapon. Whether his opponent has a weapon or not shouldn't matter according to LOCH, but that is clearly not the case.

Agree. The LOCH statement was simply taken out of context and expanded beyond it's original meaning, much like how it was once previously argued that, because XAJH stated that acupoint-sealing was a low level skill that would never be used in a battle between elites, YYZ practitioners would be low-level by XAJH standards.

The statement simply meant that for fighters at the 'elite' level, their barehanded skills and weapon skills are both at 'elite' level and thus it doesn't make a big difference whether they use weapons or not against most fighters. Whenever the question comes up, every indication is given that a weapon is still an advantage (provided one has an 'elite' level weapon technique), just one which normally is not needed. When OYF threatened to go all-out on Guo Jing after his first humiliating capture, he threatened to bring his snake-headed staff. When Yang Guo was fighting with QQR, it was stated that he was at an advantage due to wielding a weapon (while QQR was barehanded), but since QQR had two arms to Yang Guo's one, it balanced out.

In YG's case, his sword technique is ABOVE 'elite' level, while his other skills (such as barehanded combat) are below. So long as he only uses the sword technique though, he is capable of consistently besting 'elite' level fighters.

[CancerLuna]

Yeah, apparently by shoving snow into a Great's face (dirty trick), and by having Xiao Longnu ambush another Great.

Won by superior martial arts? I don't think so. And even if he could beat them fairly, it would be with the help of a weapon, which Jin Yong explicitly said in LOCH that Elite martial artists do not need, which makes Yang Guo not yet an Elite (he did become Elite when he later abandoned the HIS in favor of Sad Palms).

According to the translation, he was already gradually losing the battle, and I guess it would be dirty if he picked up some snow and threw it at him, but the snow blinding him was a result of the sword swing, not really a dirty trick.

Yang Guo was standing in one place disadvantaged with having to hold Xiao Longnu so I'd say it speaks more of the monk not being able to defeat Yang Guo from that context.

In both scenarios, the great level fighter was seen to be on the losing end anyhow.

In LOCH, Jin Yong stated that Elite martial artists do not need weapons to be superior; in other words, having a weapon or not doesn't make much difference to an Elite. But it did make a significant different to Yang Guo, so he couldn't be considered Elite martial artist until he developed Sad Palms and moved on from the HIS.

It's like the controversy in sports today: should athletes be allowed to use external technology to enhance their performance? Such as swimmers using the Speedo swim suits. It is extremely controversial.

Why does it matter if Yang Guo is considered an elite by LOCH standards though?

I thought the topic at hand was whether Yang Guo can defeat a Great with his HIS pre-16 year and their reaction to it.

In the story, after being defeated(Great Wheel Monk, Qia Qianren), neither of them really equated their loss to purely the HIS, so I doubt any of the other Greats would to.

Also, for things to truly be fair, the author might as well give two different people the same set of skills and let them fight. Imagine Yang Guo or Guo Jing with Zhang Wuji's skillset, they'd trounce him even harder than with their own skillset(IMO).

[Ren Ying Ying]

Also, for things to truly be fair, the author might as well give two different people the same set of skills and let them fight. Imagine Yang Guo or Guo Jing with Zhang Wuji's skillset, they'd trounce him even harder than with their own skillset(IMO).

Yang Guo might, but I doubt Guo Jing has the improvision skills necessary for the likes of Taiji & Qiankun (to a certain extent). Though, he might just throw random punches and confuse Zhang Wuji, who would then lose because he was so confused.

On a side note though, I wonder how it would work with two ppl both using Taiji & QKDNY considering that both of those skills are typically "counter active".

[CC]

Given that YG was the hero of ROCH. I'd say that if it came down to blows, he would at _worst_ tie the Greats with his pre-16 yr HIS.

It would still be 'consistent'. Pre-16yr, the GWM has not done his 'doubling' yet. So post 16, YG, the Greats and GWM all do their 'doubling' and again, at _worst_, YG ties the Greats.

And I agree with RWX. Not too much weight should be given to that LOCH statement. After all, if weapon and weaponless were no different, why would H7G and HYS make a case about fighting with and without a weapon at 2nd Mt Hua. Why would H7G need a stick for his DBS? Why would LHC think DFBB would do better with a sword? Why would XF need to pick up a sabre at Ju Xian Zhuang? Why would Duan Yu need the help of a blade to free XF when he had 6MSJ? Why would YG bemoan not bringing his HIS against Goldie? Why would ZWJ need the wooden sword against a 'sub elite' like Fang Dongbai? Why would the undefeatable ultimate stage DGKB need a pebble or even a blade of grass when he can just use his hands?

OK don't bring Sweeper Monk into this. Even though there is zero evidence, I am sure if he had the Yu Tian Jian he would be even more HeXxor.

[Ken Cheng]

Given that YG was the hero of ROCH. I'd say that if it came down to blows, he would at _worst_ tie the Greats with his pre-16 yr HIS.

Gwok Jing didn't get a similar degree of "main character favoritism" in LOCH. As of the end of LOCH, he was still, at best, only 70% of a Great, and it would take another ten years before he would reach parity with the Greats.

Something stinks here, and it's not in the ventilation system...

[CC]

Gwok Jing didn't get a similar degree of "main character favoritism" in LOCH. As of the end of LOCH, he was still, at best, only 70% of a Great, and it would take another ten years before he would reach parity with the Greats.

Something stinks here, and it's not in the ventilation system...

Awww c'mon. GJ was enjoying his roast mutton legs and the company of Toulei and Pretty Princess while poor little YG was all alone until Uncle Guo found him. Then the nasty Quanzhen baddies bullied him!

GJ didn't get his arm chopped off!

GJ didn't have to endure 16 yrs separation from HR.

GJ didn't have to take a non-virgin wife.

GJ didn't have to bear the burden and stigma of having a traitor for a dad.

Give poor JY some leeway in his plots will ya?

[ccchelsea]

Yang Guo might, but I doubt Guo Jing has the improvision skills necessary for the likes of Taiji & Qiankun (to a certain extent). Though, he might just throw random punches and confuse Zhang Wuji, who would then lose because he was so confused.

On a side note though, I wonder how it would work with two ppl both using Taiji & QKDNY considering that both of those skills are typically "counter active".

that bit about Zhang Wuji would lose because he was so confused is funny~ hahahaha

except that although zhang wuji is not smart in terms of seeing thru plots etc... i still maintain that he is quite intelligent in many ways.... it was mentioned various times by numerous different characters in the book... esp when he was a kid/youth.... he got dumber as he got older... brain going dead from lack of usage? !

[Ken Cheng]

Awww c'mon. GJ was enjoying his roast mutton legs and the company of Toulei and Pretty Princess while poor little YG was all alone until Uncle Guo found him. Then the nasty Quanzhen baddies bullied him!

GJ didn't get his arm chopped off!

GJ didn't have to endure 16 yrs separation from HR.

GJ didn't have to take a non-virgin wife.

GJ didn't have to bear the burden and stigma of having a traitor for a dad.

Give poor JY some leeway in his plots will ya?

In a *wuxia* novel, if your main character doesn't end up # 1 in martial arts by the end of the story, something has gone wrong.

[Dennis Chen]

My point was just that even an Elite will perform better with weapons, contrary to what is said in LOCH. If Ren is already an Elite, then DFBB is much higher and still will perform much better with a weapon. Whether his opponent has a weapon or not shouldn't matter according to LOCH, but that is clearly not the case.

Would Yideng perform Yiyang Zhi better with a sword?

Would Yang Guo with HIS be able to defeat Yideng with the Gentleman's Sword+Yiyang Zhi?