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Thread: Pre-16 Year Yang Guo vs....the other greats!

  1. #81
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CancerLuna View Post
    Why does it matter if Yang Guo is considered an elite by LOCH standards though?

    I thought the topic at hand was whether Yang Guo can defeat a Great with his HIS pre-16 year and their reaction to it.

    In the story, after being defeated(Great Wheel Monk, Qia Qianren), neither of them really equated their loss to purely the HIS, so I doubt any of the other Greats would to.
    For the first question--can Yang Guo with HIS defeat a Great (other than Qiu Qianren and GWM), I would say unlikely, but there is a small chance in my mind that he might.

    For the second question, their reaction to it, in ROCH chapter 38, it is mentioned that Golden Wheel Monk, out of honor, withdrew his weapon when he saw his opponent (Zhou Botong) approach barehanded. This means the honorable and respectful thing to do is to use the same magnitude of weapons as your opponent, and conversely, it would not be honorable to use more weapons than your opponent.

    Therefore, if Yang Guo defeated a Great with the HIS, and the Great did not dismiss Yang Guo's victory on the basis of overemployment of weapon, it's probably because they have too much pride to protest. For example, in DGSD, Duan Yanqing refused to protest Duan Yu's disruption of his contest with the Yellow Eyebrowed Monk, in which Duan Yanqing was about to win, but ultimately lost due to Duan Yu's interference. Due to his pride, Duan Yanqing simply walked away accepting the defeat.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member GuGu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    For the first question--can Yang Guo with HIS defeat a Great (other than Qiu Qianren and GWM), I would say unlikely, but there is a small chance in my mind that he might.

    For the second question, their reaction to it, in ROCH chapter 38, it is mentioned that Golden Wheel Monk, out of honor, withdrew his weapon when he saw his opponent (Zhou Botong) approach barehanded. This means the honorable and respectful thing to do is to use the same magnitude of weapons as your opponent, and conversely, it would not be honorable to use more weapons than your opponent.

    Therefore, if Yang Guo defeated a Great with the HIS, and the Great did not dismiss Yang Guo's victory on the basis of overemployment of weapon, it's probably because they have too much pride to protest. For example, in DGSD, Duan Yanqing refused to protest Duan Yu's disruption of his contest with the Yellow Eyebrowed Monk, in which Duan Yanqing was about to win, but ultimately lost due to Duan Yu's interference. Due to his pride, Duan Yanqing simply walked away accepting the defeat.
    then you're saying they should all cut off their arm in order to battle with YG fairly? i'm sorry, i mean you know, out of honor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuGu View Post
    then you're saying they should all cut off their arm in order to battle with YG fairly? i'm sorry, i mean you know, out of honor.
    I don't think the honor code re: weapons is straight-transferable to limbs. And I do think the advantage afforded by HIS outweighs the loss of his arm.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    He wasn't 'elite' in terms of being as well-rounded, but yes, he was capable of easily defeating elites with the combination of the HIS and DGQB's superior HIS technique.
    I think easily defeating Elites is an exaggeration, and that's considering the 2 Elites he "defeated" were easily the 2 worst Elites in ROCH. I have doubts about whether he can match the other, better, Elites.

    In his fight with JLGS, even though he was held to be almost immobile by XLN, he still demonstrated unquestioned superiority over JLGS
    Actually, I think it's pretty questionable...

    In his fight with Ci'en, it was specifically stated that after a hundred or so stances had passed, it became clear that Ci'en would eventually lose. The only thing the use of snow to 'blind' him did was hasten the victory.
    Yes, it looked like Ci'en would eventually lose (though probably not for a good while), but I don't think it quite qualifies as easily defeating a Great. To me, they are around the same level (Yang Guo with HIS), and only due to aging did Ci'en lose.

    And this was after Ci'en ambushed Yang Guo first with a palm blow that knocked him through a wooden wall.
    I always thought this bit was ridiculous. The result should have looked more a la Jiumozhi ambushing Duan Yu, resulting in Duan Yu being unconscious for several days.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    I don't think the honor code re: weapons is straight-transferable to limbs. And I do think the advantage afforded by HIS outweighs the loss of his arm.
    Moreover, if it really is a point of contention, Yeung Gor's sparring opponent can simply not use the other arm.

  6. #86
    Senior Member CancerLuna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    For the first question--can Yang Guo with HIS defeat a Great (other than Qiu Qianren and GWM), I would say unlikely, but there is a small chance in my mind that he might.
    Based on his previous fights using the HIS, I would say very likely, and there is a small chance that he would tie.

    For the second question, their reaction to it, in ROCH chapter 38, it is mentioned that Golden Wheel Monk, out of honor, withdrew his weapon when he saw his opponent (Zhou Botong) approach barehanded. This means the honorable and respectful thing to do is to use the same magnitude of weapons as your opponent, and conversely, it would not be honorable to use more weapons than your opponent.
    Haha, the same Golden Wheel Monk that: attacked Yang Guo's weak area(while still), attacked with multiple wheels, ganged up on Guo Jing and faking an attack to Guo Xiang is used for you example. :]

    Why is it that Yang Guo needs to lose the sword though? If the Greats want to win and even it out, they could use a weapon but the results will still probably lean to Yang Guo.

    Since you provided an example, Zhou Botang used one arm against Yang Guo when they sparred, as it is the honorable thing to do. Should all fighters only use one arm against Yang Guo?

    Are all swordsman dishonorable if they fight a palm only fighter?

    Therefore, if Yang Guo defeated a Great with the HIS, and the Great did not dismiss Yang Guo's victory on the basis of overemployment of weapon, it's probably because they have too much pride to protest. For example, in DGSD, Duan Yanqing refused to protest Duan Yu's disruption of his contest with the Yellow Eyebrowed Monk, in which Duan Yanqing was about to win, but ultimately lost due to Duan Yu's interference. Due to his pride, Duan Yanqing simply walked away accepting the defeat.
    I'd see the greats more as someone who would lose if their best skill was defeated by another's best skill, even if it employs a weapon.

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    I don't think the honor code re: weapons is straight-transferable to limbs. And I do think the advantage afforded by HIS outweighs the loss of his arm.
    It was said that Yang Guo had the advantage of the HIS while Qia Qianren had the advantage of an extra arm, so it evened out.


    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    I think easily defeating Elites is an exaggeration, and that's considering the 2 Elites he "defeated" were easily the 2 worst Elites in ROCH. I have doubts about whether he can match the other, better, Elites.
    Pre-16 year? There's no solid evidence that they were "easily" the 2 worst. Qia Qianren would only lose a half a stance to Yideng who is equal to the other greats. Great Wheel Monk wasn't seen fighting any of the older great pre-16.

    Post-16 year I thought GWM is >Yideng and Huang Yaoshi.

    I'd say he easily defeated Great Wheel Monk, and there was no real struggle like how Yideng>Qia Qianren 1/2 stance.





    Yes, it looked like Ci'en would eventually lose (though probably not for a good while), but I don't think it quite qualifies as easily defeating a Great. To me, they are around the same level (Yang Guo with HIS), and only due to aging did Ci'en lose.
    Yang Guo was going to win and he won pretty fast. HIS was said to be equal to an arm so the match was fair according to Jinyong. If its due to aging Ci'en would lose, wouldn't the other older greats fall to that excuse also?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Yeah, apparently by shoving snow into a Great's face (dirty trick), and by having Xiao Longnu ambush another Great.

    Won by superior martial arts? I don't think so. And even if he could beat them fairly, it would be with the help of a weapon, which Jin Yong explicitly said in LOCH that Elite martial artists do not need, which makes Yang Guo not yet an Elite (he did become Elite when he later abandoned the HIS in favor of Sad Palms).
    Actually, I think whether Yang Guo is an elite or not is a moot point. If the so called elite does not need a weapon and weapon does not make any difference, then Yang Guo using HIS able to beat an elite without a weapon is the same as Yang Guo beating an elite with weapon. So much that Yang Guo is not in the elite category because he's dependant on HIS, elite/greats with/without weapon would not guarantee victory against Yang Guo. And Yang Guo needing XLN ambushing JLFW with the needle was not necessary a good example since Yang Guo was rendered immobile by holding XLN in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    ... Therefore, if Yang Guo defeated a Great with the HIS, and the Great did not dismiss Yang Guo's victory on the basis of overemployment of weapon, it's probably because they have too much pride to protest. ...
    Even Greats with weapon beating pre-16 year Yang Guo with HIS is not a guarantee.

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    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    I think easily defeating Elites is an exaggeration, and that's considering the 2 Elites he "defeated" were easily the 2 worst Elites in ROCH. I have doubts about whether he can match the other, better, Elites.
    I think we're just going off a different definition of 'easily'. Every other time Greats fought against each other, the fight lasted for a long *** time before there was any conclusion or advantage whatsoever. In his fight vs QQR, Yang Guo seized the upper hand within the first 100 moves and victory was clearly just a matter of time. To me, that is 'easily' beating/showing superiority.

    I always thought this bit was ridiculous. The result should have looked more a la Jiumozhi ambushing Duan Yu, resulting in Duan Yu being unconscious for several days.
    lol, well, to be fair, Yang Guo apparently let himself be 'carried backwards' by the palm power instead of resisting it, which may have mitigated the power somewhat.

    Regardless, it's a fact that immediately after taking an unblocked, full-frontal palm that knocked him through a wall, YG popped back and really pretty much dominated a Great-level fighter who was specifically stated by the narrator as someone whom Yideng could perhaps eek out a victory by half a stance, if the two both went all out against each other.

    There's no real other way to argue it.
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    I doubt QQR's skills are really up there with the other greats.

    As for HIS = an arm. No way! you swing at someone with your arm and they can block it with their arm. but would you block someone's HIS with an arm too? having a weapon = advantage.

    I agree with PJ that pre16 YG has a small chance of beating the greats.

    also, for those who are talking about fair fighting with YG. YG is used to fighting with one arm. I'd imagine that given enough training/time like YG had, the other greats can also fight with one arm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by person135 View Post
    I doubt QQR's skills are really up there with the other greats.
    I think the difference was very slight (not the HUGE margin shown in most adaptations). If a Great and Kau Cheen Yan were to fight ten rounds, the Great could probably win seven of ten...but he'd have to work for each victory (it'd be no pushover). On his best days, Kau Cheen Yan might even take three of the ten.


    also, for those who are talking about fair fighting with YG. YG is used to fighting with one arm. I'd imagine that given enough training/time like YG had, the other greats can also fight with one arm.
    His empty right sleeve can be used as a weapon as well, so it's not as if his right side is completely defenseless despite the absence of a flesh and blood arm.

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    exactly, YG uses his sleeve in his battles too, so there would be no need for another great to cut of his arm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    Not too much weight should be given to that LOCH statement. After all, if weapon and weaponless were no different, why would H7G and HYS make a case about fighting with and without a weapon at 2nd Mt Hua. Why would H7G need a stick for his DBS? Why would LHC think DFBB would do better with a sword? Why would XF need to pick up a sabre at Ju Xian Zhuang? Why would Duan Yu need the help of a blade to free XF when he had 6MSJ? Why would YG bemoan not bringing his HIS against Goldie? Why would ZWJ need the wooden sword against a 'sub elite' like Fang Dongbai? Why would the undefeatable ultimate stage DGKB need a pebble or even a blade of grass when he can just use his hands?
    LOCH stated that using weapon or not doesn't make much difference, not that it doesn't make any difference. But the difference should be pretty small, probably no more than 5%.

    And it was stated in the context of a martial arts contest; it may not apply to other kinds of brawls (such as Xiao Feng's life/death fight & Duan Yu's freeing of XF).
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    LOCH stated that using weapon or not doesn't make much difference, not that it doesn't make any difference. But the difference should be pretty small, probably no more than 5%.

    And it was stated in the context of a martial arts contest; it may not apply to other kinds of brawls (such as Xiao Feng's life/death fight & Duan Yu's freeing of XF).
    Again, even assuming that statement should be taken at 100% face value, it was in the context of a person who had Greats-level barehanded techniques and Greats-level weapon techniques. Whereas HIS is a supra-Greats level weapon technique. To date, there are no known bare-handed techniques which are supra-Greats level (with the possible exception of some of the Xiaoyao stuff and 6MSJ).
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 09-13-09 at 11:17 AM.
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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    Whereas HIS is a supra-Greats level weapon technique.
    I certainly disagree with this assertion that HIS is somehow above Greats level.

    Of course, when Jin Yong wrote that LOCH statement, he was likely thinking of ordinary weapons, not something as powerful as the HIS.

    IMO, HIS and Dugu 9 Swords are both fast-track techniques that can greatly increase one's fighting skills in a short time. However, they are both dependent on the sword, and Dugu Qiubai certainly had greater ambitions than to let himself be limited by the reliance on external weapons (same for Yang Guo probably, judging by his abandoning of the HIS).
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    I certainly disagree with this assertion that HIS is somehow above Greats level.

    Of course, when Jin Yong wrote that LOCH statement, he was likely thinking of ordinary weapons, not something as powerful as the HIS.

    IMO, HIS and Dugu 9 Swords are both fast-track techniques that can greatly increase one's fighting skills in a short time. However, they are both dependent on the sword, and Dugu Qiubai certainly had greater ambitions than to let himself be limited by the reliance on external weapons (same for Yang Guo probably, judging by his abandoning of the HIS).
    I guess it comes down to whether or not one agree with flamer's (rather strange) interpretation of the 'suoxue' line, then...

    Although, even aside from that line, Yang Guo states that the technique of the HIS was much more advanced than the most brilliant sword techniques in the world, and specifically states it to be more powerful than the tricky moves of sword arts like that in the Jade Maiden Swordplay (which I think we can agree is a Greats-level weapon technique, yes?).
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 09-13-09 at 11:41 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    I guess it comes down to whether or not one agree with flamer's (rather strange) interpretation of the 'suoxue' line, then...
    Yes, I tend to agree more with flamer's interpretation. If Yang Guo hasn't reached high mastery in the arts he learned (which is the case for most, if not all, of them), how can he be qualified to estimate their merits?

    Although, even aside from that line, Yang Guo states that the technique of the HIS was much more advanced than the most brilliant sword techniques in the world, and specifically states it to be more powerful than the tricky moves of sword arts like that in the Jade Maiden Swordplay (which I think we can agree is a Greats-level weapon technique, yes?).
    Jade Maiden is a weapon technique performed by TWO people. The only way it can be fairly considered better than Great-level is if it can defeat the combined forces of TWO Greats.

    Can it do that?
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Yes, I tend to agree more with flamer's interpretation. If Yang Guo hasn't reached high mastery in the arts he learned (which is the case for most, if not all, of them), how can he be qualified to estimate their merits?
    HYS had already taught him the art personally, and he understood the techniques enough to scare LMC; he just wasn't as proficient in using it yet. By the time of post-16, his TZST was indistinguishable from HYS's.

    In any event, YG was exposed to Dog Beating Stick, TZST, and Toad Style, as well as a bit of YYZ and XL18Z (by watching). In no case did he ever think one of those styles was superior to the other, but as soon as he thought about HIS technique, not only did he think it was superior, he was in absolute awe of the intelligence of the creator.

    What does Occam's Razor suggest?

    Jade Maiden is a weapon technique performed by TWO people. The only way it can be fairly considered better than Great-level is if it can defeat the combined forces of TWO Greats.

    Can it do that?
    Actually, Jade Maiden is its own separate technique designed for use by one person; it's just that when used in conjunction with Quanzhen swordplay, the synergy from the techniques is so overwhelmingly powerful that it allows two scrub level fighters (in love) to overcome a Greats-level fighter.

    Two Greats-level fighters using Jade Maiden/Quanzhen should be more than capable of flattening the combined forces of TWO Greats at least.
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    I don't think the weapon itself was necessarily a super weapon. It's just an unorthodox weapon. The technique DGQB developed for it is extremely advanced however.

    regarding when YG said the technique was better than what he had learned before, YG didn't really master XL18Z, and I don't think he knew dog staff & toad stance enough to truly know how powerful they are. I think when YG saw H7G fight OYF at the time, he didn't really know what powerful martial arts really looked like. Up to that point, he had just been training with XLN and fighting QuanZhen taoists, who YG thought were very weak. He hasn't really been exposed to top level fighting yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by person135 View Post
    I doubt QQR's skills are really up there with the other greats.

    As for HIS = an arm. No way! you swing at someone with your arm and they can block it with their arm. but would you block someone's HIS with an arm too? having a weapon = advantage.

    I agree with PJ that pre16 YG has a small chance of beating the greats.

    also, for those who are talking about fair fighting with YG. YG is used to fighting with one arm. I'd imagine that given enough training/time like YG had, the other greats can also fight with one arm.
    But Qia Qianren IS up there with the greats.
    Lost to Great Wheel Monk after a day of fighting.
    Would only lose to Yideng by a half a stance.

    What more do you want?

    Jinyong states that the advantage of Yang Guo's HIS is negated by the fact that Qia Qianren has 2 arms. zzz

    Having one arm is ALWAYS a disadvantage. Why else do you see people citing Yang Guo's one arm handicap as the reason why he would lose many matchups in the Versus Polls. .

    In fact, making Yang Guo exceed the older greats with just one arm is a huge tribute to him.

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    What would the other Greats do to counter the HIS? The philosophy of the HIS is to smash through everything with straightforward power with very slight variations. It's ingenious it seems because it figured out a way for the user to deliver his moves at full power yet it can still move like a sword. Imagine a full powered Dragon Palm blast; it reaches the direction you shoot it at, and that's about it. I imagine HIS to carry similar force except as a sword, you can immediately slash and thrust from different angles right away. Close range chain Dragon Palms so to speak.

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