Pre-16 Year Yang Guo vs....the other greats!

[tape]

I know we don't really like to think about it....but seeing as he handily defeated GWM and QQR, it seems likely he'd defeat the other Greats too, no? Huang Yaoshi and co may have never felt defeat before except by Wang Chongyang, but they might lose to a 20 year old kid with one arm. How do you think Huang would feel? I assume Yideng and Guo Jing would genuinely be happy, but ol' Huang may not have mellowed out THAT much that his arrogance and ego wouldn't make him try to practice a bit more.

[PJ]

They might dismiss him on the basis of weapon-reliance.

[WuxiaMaster]

Seriously think the pre 16 GWM is overrated... =.=

[Dennis Chen]

QQR is the over-rated beat up dummy of LOCH. GWM is the over-rated beat up dummy of ROCH.

[Ken Cheng]

They might dismiss him on the basis of weapon-reliance.

Precisely. Since he was reliant on the weapon to win, that victory isn't totally Yeung Gor's, but the Heavy Iron Sword's. Sure...he was the one who had to learn how to wield it, but wouldn't any of the Greats, if he had possession of the sword, have done *at least* as well, if not better?

[Dennis Chen]

Would the HIS be able to win against Hong Qi's Da Gou Bang Fa or Ouyang Feng's Serpent Staff?

Actually, scratch that.

Yang Guo knows how to defeat both of those even without the HIS.

[Exodus]

YG could probably hold his own against the other greats. If he could overwhelm them he would have a very good chance beating them.

[tape]

Wheelie considered his defeat 16 years ago to be incredibly humiliating, he didn't blame the weapon but rather himself. What makes you guys think the Greats would stoop to the level of blaming the sword and dismissing Yang Guo?

Nobody ever says (after being beat by Guo Jing/ Hong Qi), oh yeah well let me use your Dragon Palms I can beat you then !

[tape]

Precisely. Since he was reliant on the weapon to win, that victory isn't totally Yeung Gor's, but the Heavy Iron Sword's. Sure...he was the one who had to learn how to wield it, but wouldn't any of the Greats, if he had possession of the sword, have done *at least* as well, if not better?

And I'm not sure the older Greats would be compatible with the sword, as their energy is not the rough overbearing type. It might be powerful in their hands, but to say they would be at least as good is is definitely debatable.

[Ken Cheng]

Wheelie considered his defeat 16 years ago to be incredibly humiliating, he didn't blame the weapon but rather himself. What makes you guys think the Greats would stoop to the level of blaming the sword and dismissing Yang Guo?

Nobody ever says (after being beat by Guo Jing/ Hong Qi), oh yeah well let me use your Dragon Palms I can beat you then !

There's a significant difference: once Gwok Jing or North Beggar Hung 7 Gung learns the Hong Lung 18 Palms, it is inseparable from his person. There's no way for them to be separated from Hong Lung 18 Palms short of killing them or cutting off both of their arms.

With the Heavy Iron Sword, however, the weapon is separate from Yeung Gor. He isn't always necessarily going to have the sword with him, and if he is separated from the sword (pre-Sad Palms), he isn't going to be able to take on a Great.

[Ken Cheng]

And I'm not sure the older Greats would be compatible with the sword, as their energy is not the rough overbearing type.

"Rough and overbearing" don't sound like characteristics that suggest overall superiority. If one has very strong inner power and doesn't bother to refine it, it will naturally come out as "rough and overbearing." It's probably easier for a high inner power practitioner who possesses refined inner power to "let go" and become rough and overbearing than it would be for rough and overbearing to become refined.

[PJ]

Wheelie considered his defeat 16 years ago to be incredibly humiliating, he didn't blame the weapon but rather himself. What makes you guys think the Greats would stoop to the level of blaming the sword and dismissing Yang Guo?

Because Wheelie is an idiot.

Nobody ever says (after being beat by Guo Jing/ Hong Qi), oh yeah well let me use your Dragon Palms I can beat you then !

Well, because it wouldn't work. On ze other hand, A gigantic sword is much easier to leverage.

I'm not sure the older Greats would be compatible with the sword, as their energy is not the rough overbearing type.

Hong Qigong and Ouyang Feng seem to have pretty overbearing internal types. I think they can take advantage of HIS. As for Huang and Duan, their arts are more elegant, I'm not sure how they would look at HIS.

[pannonian]

Something the adaptations fail to adequately show is just how dependent the pre-16 years Yang Guo is on the heavy sword. Every impressive feat he performs, of whatever type, involves the sword. There's the fighting, of course, and splitting a sarcophagus in two, but also pushing the coffin lid to seal Li Mochou in, and generating a wind around his body to allow him to travel through a forest fire to save Guo Fu. Without the sword, he is just like the pre-HIS Yang Guo, except with a bit more experience, but minus an arm. With the sword, he can content with QQR and GWM, and perform Great-level feats.

[Ren Wo Xing]

There IS a technique that goes with the sword, guys...

[Dennis Chen]

And I'm not sure the older Greats would be compatible with the sword, as their energy is not the rough overbearing type. It might be powerful in their hands, but to say they would be at least as good is is definitely debatable.

I would think Ouyang Feng and Hong Qi's internal were both rough and overbearing.

Edit: Yeah, what PJ said.

[Ken Cheng]

I would think Ouyang Feng and Hong Qi's internal were both rough and overbearing.

Edit: Yeah, what PJ said.

Agreed. What would Hong Lung 18 Palms or Ha Mo Gung be if not "rough and overbearing?"

[CancerLuna]

I know we don't really like to think about it....but seeing as he handily defeated GWM and QQR, it seems likely he'd defeat the other Greats too, no? Huang Yaoshi and co may have never felt defeat before except by Wang Chongyang, but they might lose to a 20 year old kid with one arm. How do you think Huang would feel? I assume Yideng and Guo Jing would genuinely be happy, but ol' Huang may not have mellowed out THAT much that his arrogance and ego wouldn't make him try to practice a bit more.

They would have accepted defeat.

They might dismiss him on the basis of weapon-reliance.

That's what people reading the novel would do, but people in the actual novel?

Precisely. Since he was reliant on the weapon to win, that victory isn't totally Yeung Gor's, but the Heavy Iron Sword's. Sure...he was the one who had to learn how to wield it, but wouldn't any of the Greats, if he had possession of the sword, have done *at least* as well, if not better?

They would have done alot worse, because you need to know the HIS technique as well.

Something the adaptations fail to adequately show is just how dependent the pre-16 years Yang Guo is on the heavy sword. Every impressive feat he performs, of whatever type, involves the sword. There's the fighting, of course, and splitting a sarcophagus in two, but also pushing the coffin lid to seal Li Mochou in, and generating a wind around his body to allow him to travel through a forest fire to save Guo Fu. Without the sword, he is just like the pre-HIS Yang Guo, except with a bit more experience, but minus an arm. With the sword, he can content with QQR and GWM, and perform Great-level feats.

What about Guo Jing, who was pretty much a nobody until he learned the Dragon Palms and relied on them exclusively to win. Its pretty much the same as Yang Guo relying on his best skill and weapon usage obviously to win.

Without the sword, he'd be the same Yang Guo, minus an arm, with much much more internal energy.

[person135]

Well first of all, anyone who is weaponless would be at an advantage fighting someone with a weapon.

Pre16 YG might be able to beat the greats, but it wouldn't exactly be the fairest fight. Give the greats a sword or some weapon to fight with and then you'd be even.

I don't think pre16 YG can beat the greats. He can at most tie them. QQR wasn't at the great's level, although he was near. But he'd lose to the greats in a fight. GWM pre16 wasn't at greats level either. So I think the best YG can do is tie the greats, even with his HIS.

[person135]

What about Guo Jing, who was pretty much a nobody until he learned the Dragon Palms and relied on them exclusively to win. Its pretty much the same as Yang Guo relying on his best skill and weapon usage obviously to win.

Without the sword, he'd be the same Yang Guo, minus an arm, with much much more internal energy.

sword vs fist isn't exactly fair. GJ relying on XL18 is still relying on himself. YG relying on HIS = actually relying on something else. The sword isn't part of him. He just uses it.

[pannonian]

What about Guo Jing, who was pretty much a nobody until he learned the Dragon Palms and relied on them exclusively to win. Its pretty much the same as Yang Guo relying on his best skill and weapon usage obviously to win.

Without the sword, he'd be the same Yang Guo, minus an arm, with much much more internal energy.

But no-one's arguing that Guo Jing could beat or even match the Greats at any point in LOCH. Also, IMHO Yang Guo with the heavy sword didn't have that much more internal energy than pre-HIS Yang Guo than is usually supposed. Most of the internal-related feats during the HIS period had a heavy element of HIS in it, even for feats where one wouldn't expect a sword to be used. One barehanded feat that he did, knocking aside Guo Fu's sword with the divine flicking finger, was replicated by Cheng Ying shortly after, and Cheng Ying's execution had greater effect. IMHO Yang Guo learned to channel his energy more efficiently through the HIS during his HIS training, but he didn't really gain much energy as such.