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  1. #61
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    The insanity plea doesn't hold any water these days to be realistic.

  2. #62
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    He had her blood on his shoes. So he probably was smacking her around.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Trinie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jiang bao View Post
    The whole insanity defense thing is total BS. I donít care if someone has no control over his actions. He still killed someone. Animals who attack people get put down, why not crazy people who are violent. Animals are sentient beings too. Why do they have to get killed if violent insane people get to live in special care?

    PS, I am sympathetic toward people who are mentally challenged. Above I am referring only to those who have committed violent crimes and are a menace to society. Other mentally challenged people should get all the care they need.

    And I donít believe thatís the case for this Clark dude. It would be kinda ironic if it turned out he had no romantic interest in her at all and only killed her out of work rage over rat cages(?).
    I totally agree and hate it when people use the insanity excuse so that they can get a less severe punishment for their evil crimes. I remember when I watched "America's Most Wanted", there was this one 14 year old girl who stabbed her own father 107 times!!!! I could NOT believe that and all she got was 25 years in prison. She was trialed as an adult too and I think they used insanity once again as her reason for brutally killing her father. Gosh, I was so mad and wished that she got the death penalty too.... I support the death penalty in really severe cases like that too. However, sadly our system does not seem to work that way.
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  4. #64
    Senior Member Trinie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen View Post
    Dr. Henry Lee said cause of death was asphyxiation, not necessarily strangulation, that it could have been a heavy object on her neck that killed her. The suspect looks to be a pretty solidly built guy. She was, from what I've read, 4'10".

    Who knows? Maybe she caught him doing something wrong/illegal and was going to report him. He may have wanted to talk it out, she insists on leaving. He panics and he grabs her to stop her from leaving, she pushes him away, his panic is reaching a peak and he grabs her again. Now she thinks she's fighting for her life and she keeps fighting, scratching at his chest, hitting him where ever she can. He's getting attacked, but he doesn't hit her, he just wants to stop her, so he get's her into a chokehold to restrain her and to stop her from fighting back at him and he ends up crushing her larynx/windpipe and she suffocates to death. Probably not difficult for him at his size comparative to her's.

    Doesn't have to be strangulation.

    Could be anything. Still murder.
    Hey, she was my height, but she weighed 9-10 pounds less than me. I feel fat now.
    I am more scared now since my body size may put me as an easy target too. I wonder if we will ever get to know the whole story. BUt I must say that most of you make pretty good guesses about what happened. I hope the murderer will get the punishment that he deserves...
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  5. #65
    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jiang bao View Post
    Heís a pretty big dude and heís possibly psycho. Do you really wanna be in a room with him? Sure, you can ask to have him tied up or defenseless in some way so he canít hit back, but to me personally thatís sadism and I wonít go for attacking a defenseless person.

    Iíd vote for death penalty. Itís a waste of money to keep him alive.

    PS, for clarification, as Iíve mentioned in previous discussions, I only favor the death penalty in extreme cases.
    i think death penalty is a bit extreme in this case, esp since we don't know the details. We don't even know if he intended to actually kill her or was he just out of his mind in a fit of rage. Not that it makes his actions forgivable, but depending on the circumstances, I don't think it's extreme enough to inflict the "death penalty".

  6. #66
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    To me, someone who kills someone for a purpose is less dangerous than someone who just snaps. Thus, if this dude truly just snapped over some dirty cages as the story floating around the media is now, then he deserves capital punishment because heís a danger to others.

    Of course, I reserve the right to change my mind as details are muddy at this point. Maybe she initiated the fight and kneed him in the balls and he lost it. In that case, I would give him a little bit of leniency. My original guess that he was a psycho with a crush on her seems to be wrong so I am just going on the latest available updates.
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  7. #67
    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jiang bao View Post
    To me, someone who kills someone for a purpose is less dangerous than someone who just snaps. Thus, if this dude truly just snapped over some dirty cages as the story floating around the media is now, then he deserves capital punishment because he’s a danger to others.

    Of course, I reserve the right to change my mind as details are muddy at this point. Maybe she initiated the fight and kneed him in the balls and he lost it. In that case, I would give him a little bit of leniency. My original guess that he was a psycho with a crush on her seems to be wrong so I am just going on the latest available updates.
    Being dangerous doesn't necessarily equate to capital punishment (unless you think he has the ability to break out of jail). In my opinion, "intent" plays a major role in the decision of punishment. I don't think someone deserves to "die" because of an accident/unplanned incidence.
    Last edited by Ren Ying Ying; 09-18-09 at 04:35 PM.

  8. #68
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    i'm more than sure that the lawyers will try that mentally ill crap. that's the reason why i want to be in a room with him for one hour. and no, he doesn't need to be tied up.

  9. #69
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    So the latest spin is that this is a crime of passion... for mice? @[email protected]

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    I favor the death penalty for premeditated murders and active homicide such as strangling or stabbing (vs accidental manslaughter like pushing someone and he hit his head). And child molesters and repeated rapists should get the life sentence without parole.

    I don't believe any therapy can help these people ever become "safely normal" to the public again. You did it once, your whole mindset is changed. Just like an animal who has tasted human blood will be tempted to kill men again when the perceived "need" arise.

    As for the few wrongly accused, it is unfortunate but releasing them after 10 years of jail may not be better anyway; their life was forever ruined by the trial, jail time, and stigma already. They will never live normal again.

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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by jiang bao View Post
    The whole insanity defense thing is total BS. I don’t care if someone has no control over his actions. He still killed someone. Animals who attack people get put down, why not crazy people who are violent. Animals are sentient beings too. Why do they have to get killed if violent insane people get to live in special care?

    PS, I am sympathetic toward people who are mentally challenged. Above I am referring only to those who have committed violent crimes and are a menace to society. Other mentally challenged people should get all the care they need.

    And I don’t believe that’s the case for this Clark dude. It would be kinda ironic if it turned out he had no romantic interest in her at all and only killed her out of work rage over rat cages(?).
    There is a huge difference between mentally ill and mentally challenged. Being mentally ill means that you have a psychological disorder, and that itself has a huge range of diagnoses. Most psychological disorders pose no harm to others (i.e., anxiety disorders), whereas few may cause a person to be more likely to harm another (i.e., antisocial personality disorder). The majority of psychological disorders pose more harm to the individual with that disorder than someone around that person, e.g. a depressive person may be more likely to injure themselves than someone around them, a person with borderline personality disorder may also more likely hurt themselves an another, etc. Even with disorders such as antisocial personality disorder, it doesn't mean that a person is certain to harm another.

    Mentally challenged, on the other hand, refers to individuals who have delayed mental abilities. For example, people with Down Syndrome or Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. These commonly are people who exhibit delayed mental development compared to their peers.

    These two descriptions are very different, and shouldn't be used interchangeably.
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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinie View Post
    I totally agree and hate it when people use the insanity excuse so that they can get a less severe punishment for their evil crimes. I remember when I watched "America's Most Wanted", there was this one 14 year old girl who stabbed her own father 107 times!!!! I could NOT believe that and all she got was 25 years in prison. She was trialed as an adult too and I think they used insanity once again as her reason for brutally killing her father. Gosh, I was so mad and wished that she got the death penalty too.... I support the death penalty in really severe cases like that too. However, sadly our system does not seem to work that way.
    That's one thing I really hate. People keep using the insanity excuse to get away for their crimes. So how to differentiate from real insanity to fake insanity?
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guo Xiang View Post
    That's one thing I really hate. People keep using the insanity excuse to get away for their crimes. So how to differentiate from real insanity to fake insanity?
    If they get a real good lawyer, you can't.

    That's one of the reasons I don't like the insanity plea - it completely trivializes the severity of actual mental illnesses.
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  13. #73
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    The important thing to remember is that "Insanity" is a strictly a legal term. It is a legal defense, and not an actual psychological concept. You use it to negate the requirement of "intent" or mens rea if you stand accused of a serious crime. The fundamental difference is that "insanity" looks more at your ability to demonstrate intent, and not so much whether you are, in fact, clinically ill. The idea is whether you had the "mental capacity" to understand and appreciate the nature of your actions. Psychologists and psychiatrists don't use the term "insanity" or "insane" in any of their clinical descriptions.

    Most murderers are obviously whacked in the head in some way. That's not enough. If it were that easy to prove "insanity," you would see a lot more of them get off the hook. But in fact, it's very difficult to prove insanity.

    For example, you can be clinically schizophrenic, but ruled as legally "sane" during the act of a murder. However, you could feasibly be ruled "insane" if it was proven that you heard a thousand voices, had no idea who you were, and no idea where you were as you lashed out at your victim. That's the main difference.

    In this case, I believe Clark had the requisite "intent" to commit the crime. He understood his physical advantages and used them to overpower his victim. He then stuffed her in the wall, went out to play softball, and tried to hide equipment and thereby obstruct the investigation. He needs to cough up a very convincing story about how God told him to defend the rights of all mice in order for me to believe that he lacked the "intent" to kill her. This is strictly a question of intent, and he seems to have shown it.

  14. #74
    Senior Member expression's Avatar
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    If Clark did strangle Ms Le and if he was as described by coworkers, the administration of the university animal facility has huge responsibility over the tragedy. They have probably received multiple complaints over the years he had worked there and just brushed them aside.

    If I received a text from some animal lab tech saying "we need to talk", I'd be totally freaked. This is not a technician in her own lab working on the same project, this is a facility worker - more like a janitor. These are typically only acquaintances with grad students unless they are bossy and territorial, in which case I'd be even more freaked when I got the message.

    I guess the only conclusion is, all girls can use some sort of self-defense training.
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by expression View Post
    I guess the only conclusion is, all girls can use some sort of self-defense training.
    Let's not forget that men are on the average, much stronger than women. I highly doubt any sort of self-defense would have been able to help her out if he was really intent on finishing her. I'm not sure how well judo would have worked, but she was literally a foot shorter than this dude, and less than half his weight. He could have just sat on her and she would not have been able to do anything.

  16. #76
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    If she had a concealed knife and slashed his throat. Game over.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banh Mi View Post
    If she had a concealed knife and slashed his throat. Game over.
    If that happened, things would have turned out very very differently indeed.

  18. #78
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    But ofcourse, if he had ambushed her by surprise, she'd probably would never have a hope. Even if it had been a full grown man.

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  20. #80
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    I don't think self-defense training could have enabled a girl to defeat a big guy. But there are some techniques that may buy her some time to escape? Even a sense of preparedness - having some kinda idea of what parts to go for - may have boosted her chances of opening the door and screaming down the hallway?

    Definitely not an expert though. Maybe it's time to work on that. @[email protected]
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