How good was Pre-HIS Yang Guo if he was placed in HSDS?

[augster123]

before YG got the uber-boost with the Dugu training and HIS and before losing his arm, how good was peak pre-HIS YG if he was placed in HSDS?

possible scenarios: was he good enough to stop XX from taking the Dragon Sabre at the Sabre-Showing Ceremony?
was he good enough to take on Ah Da, Ah Er, and Ah San individually or perhaps even a XM elder?

Discuss.

[Dennis Chen]

Suo Bu De.

[Exodus]

He would be among the very best and could potentially defeat ZWJ

[Ren Wo Xing]

Not all that high; he was well below LMC's level, even after learning Tanzhi Shentong from HYS.

I would place him somewhere around the Five Wanderers at best. Definitely not capable of handling Xie Xun, who was said to be perhaps the best/have the most potential of the Protector Kings pre-blindness.

[Ken Cheng]

He probably wouldn't be able to get past any one of the non-dead, non-crippled Mo Dong 7 Disciples.

[Exodus]

people are underestimating him pre HIS he was already among the best fighter except the greats so he could def. handle XX with no problem...

[Ken Cheng]

people are underestimating him pre HIS he was already among the best fighter except the greats so he could def. handle XX with no problem...

Dude...c'mon. Pre-Heavy Iron Sword, here is the list of people in ROCH (non-Greats only) whose martial arts were clearly above that of Yeung Gor (no particular order):

1. Lee Mok Sau

2. Yau Chui Gei

3. Wong Chui 1

4. Siu Seung Tze

5. Lui Mor Singh

6. Wan Hak Sai

7. Gung Sheun Tze

8. Wong Yung

Those are the absolute-sure-thing-ahead-of-him characters. Still out there contending are folks such as Yeh Lut Chai, the four disciples of 1 Deng, Ying Goo, Little Dragon Girl, Fok Do, Dat Yee Ba, and possibly the remaining second generation Cheun Jen Disciples.

Next you're going to be telling us that when Yeung Gor was born out of Muk Lim Chi's womb, he was ready to take on all the LOCH Greats.

[augster123]

aside from Divine Flick + Jade Flute, he was also armed with other goodies as well (such as parts of Nine Yin, Reverse Nine Yin, QZ Martial Arts, Jade Maiden Manual, Toad Stance + Dog Beating Stick Technique and the main important part was how his martial arts comprehension also kicked up a notch or two after getting a tip from GWM). Even with all that, he cant even match up to a Yin Liting or Muo 7th hero and can at best match up to one of the 5 Wanderers?

[Ken Cheng]

aside from Divine Flick + Jade Flute, he was also armed with other goodies as well (such as parts of Nine Yin, Reverse Nine Yin, QZ Martial Arts, Jade Maiden Manual, Toad Stance + Dog Beating Stick Technique and the main important part was how his martial arts comprehension also kicked up a notch or two after getting a tip from GWM). Even with all that, he cant even match up to a Yin Liting or Muo 7th hero and can at best match up to one of the 5 Wanderers?

Yeung Gor's problem early on is that he was a jack-of-all-trades, but master of none. Yes, he knew a wide variety of skills, but he was a true master of none of them at that point of his career. In wuxia, having a wide variety of skills doesn't avail a character very much if he/she does not master them in *depth*.

Note that Yeung Gor didn't begin knocking on the door of Greats status until he abandoned his "knicknack" skills in favor of one clear direction.

Also, don't underestimate the Mo Dong 7 Heroes or the Five Wanderers of the Ming Cult. Greats aside, these guys were individually quite formidable.

[Banh Mi]

If I recall, YG was always running away from battle against anyone with a name unless he had his jade maiden double team attack ready.

Though could you make an argument for him using the DBS after HR passed onto him the theory part of it? Would it be formidable enough at his level to hold his own?

I would argue that a large part of YG's abilities is his cunning use of his varied attacks though I don't really buy the hypotising trick.

[tape]

This got me thinking that HSDS has A LOT of strong 2nd tier fighters compared to LOCH/ROCH. Perhaps the ROCH 2nd tier crew (Ni moxing, etc) didn't get much screen time, but even the strongest of the 2nd tier doesn't impress me as much as the HSDS 2nd/3rd tier, and there a a lot of them. Counter deterioration theory if you must.

In HSDS we have:
Ming Sect 4 Guardians
Yang Xiao/Fan Yao
Wudang 5 Heroes
2 Xuan Ming Elders
3 Du Monks
4 Divine Reverends
Mie Jue
The strong 2 fighters that attacked the Du Monks
Yang Dingtian

...and I'm probably forgetting a bunch.

[Ken Cheng]

I

Though could you make an argument for him using the DBS after HR passed onto him the theory part of it? Would it be formidable enough at his level to hold his own?

Depends on who the opponent is. His knowledge of Dog Beating Stick Technique was good enough to (sort of) handle Fok Do and Fan 1 Yung (of Passionless Valley), but didn't avail him much against Lee Mok Sau, Gung Sheun Tze, or anyone else at that level or higher of martial arts.

I would argue that a large part of YG's abilities is his cunning use of his varied attacks though I don't really buy the hypotising trick.

Early Yeung Gor got by mostly on wit. He wasn't going to overpower anybody of repute in wulin.

[person135]

I dont think YG ever learned reverse 9yin. Ken is right. He's a jack of all trades but master of none. He didn't know anything very well besides probably jade maiden. Pre HIS he couldn't really do much. He definitely wasn't one of the best fighters greats aside. He couldn't even beat Li Mo Chou, GWM's disciple, or HR or GSZ.

I'd say somehwere below the 7 wudang disciples. Don't get him confused up with HIS YG or post16 YG.
HIS YG would probably match up pretty well against the 7 wudang and maybe even XX. Post 16 he can beat XX and is near ZWJ's lvl.

[Ken Cheng]

I dont think YG ever learned 9yin.

He learned portions of it...just those portions that Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung inscribed into the walls of the Ancient Tomb compound. Among the skills were pressure-point autoreleasing technique, breath-holding technique (for swimming through the secret entrance/exit to the tomb compound), and the hypnosis technique (key to countering the Jade Maiden Manual's skills). This was just a fragment of the 9 Yum Jen Ging, however; it did not include the other martial arts skills or the vital inner-power building component.

HIS YG would probably match up pretty well against the 7 wudang and maybe even XX.

With the Heavy Iron Sword, Yeung Gor would smear anybody sub-Greats level.

[tape]

I dont think YG ever learned 9yin. Ken is right. He's a jack of all trades but master of none. He didn't know anything very well besides probably jade maiden. Pre HIS he couldn't really do much. He definitely wasn't one of the best fighters greats aside. He couldn't even beat Li Mo Chou, GWM's disciple, or HR or GSZ.

I'd say somehwere below the 7 wudang disciples. Don't get him confused up with HIS YG or post16 YG.
HIS YG would probably match up pretty well against the 7 wudang and maybe even XX. Post 16 he can beat XX and is near ZWJ's lvl.

Pre HIS I agree with you, but the day he stepped out of the valley with the HIS he is for all intents and purposes able to match a Great in a fight. He would thrash anybody else below him, as evidenced by demolishing Xiao Xiangzi and Nimoxing and co in one blow a piece, who are all imo around Wudang hero level if not better. I was pretty impressed by Ni moxing's short spar with Wheelie, as he held his own for quite a bit without a disadvantage.

[person135]

ken I meant reverse 9yin not normal 9yin

typo ^_^'

that's why I said he'd be a good match for the 7 wudang people. he can beat them. he'd give XX a good fight too.

[augster123]

This got me thinking that HSDS has A LOT of strong 2nd tier fighters compared to LOCH/ROCH. Perhaps the ROCH 2nd tier crew (Ni moxing, etc) didn't get much screen time, but even the strongest of the 2nd tier doesn't impress me as much as the HSDS 2nd/3rd tier, and there a a lot of them. Counter deterioration theory if you must.

In HSDS we have:
Ming Sect 4 Guardians
Yang Xiao/Fan Yao
Wudang 5 Heroes
2 Xuan Ming Elders
3 Du Monks
4 Divine Reverends
Mie Jue
The strong 2 fighters that attacked the Du Monks
Yang Dingtian

...and I'm probably forgetting a bunch.

thats why its interesting to see how peak pre-HIS YG would fare before getting that uber boost that placed him in range with a Great

i remember somewhere reading in a thread before, someone broke down peak Pre-HIS YG's martial arts progression by comparing to a martial arts level of a character (i'll do the same here):

YG @ Heroe's Meeting --> shade below HuoDu + Da Er Ba; Hao Datong's level?

after obtaining the formulae of DBS from Huang Rong; 70% mastery of DBS technique? -> Qiu ChuJi's level; can beat HuoDu + at least tie Da Er Ba

after learning Divine Flick + Jade Flute -> shade above Qiu ChuJi; shade below LMC

after boost on MA comprenhension from GWM's tip -> shade above LMC+Mongol Mercs; tie with GSZ

imo, i'd place him @ one of the higher WuDang Heroes level like Yu Lianzhou; so i guess at least a tie with XX?

[Ken Cheng]

after learning Divine Flick + Jade Flute -> shade above Qiu ChuJi; shade below LMC

There's a huge problem here: Jin Yong explicitly said that Lee Mok Sau's martial arts level was below that of Yau Chui Gei, Wong Chui 1, and Ma Yuk. If Yeung Gor can't beat Lee Mok Sau, he won't be able to beat any of the three Cheun Jen Elders either.

[person135]

he learned a skill but he didn't master it. learning something like dbs or tzst is like adding another trade for his jack of all trades status. it just meant he knew how to utilize the techniques for another skill. his internal didn't necessarily go up. he could beat LMC only because HYS taught him how to counter LMC's attacks. YG's martial arts training was still below that of LMC's. He just knew how to beat her using her weaknesses.

I'd say that Yang ding tian and 2 XM elders were probably 1.5 tier people. they're stronger than 2nd tier.

[Ren Wo Xing]

YG at Heroes' Meeting is not a shade below Huo Du/Da Erba; he is significantly below their level, having much weaker internal energy. He won purely on wits.

YG, even at the very end, where he is playing 'capture the baby' with JLGS and Li Mochou, is stated to be below Li Mochou's level. At no point in time pre-HIS did he rise to be above LMC's level, and I really feel that Li Mochou would not be able to beat Xie Xun level fighters.

As I said, Five Wanderers level at best.