Huge discrepancy between Quan Zhen members

[tape]

I was rereading some of ROCH and found this little quote describing Zhu Ziliu (Yideng's disciple)

"Right now his kung fu could not compare with Guo Jing, Ma Yu and Qiu Chu Ji but he was better than Wang Chuyi, Hao Datong and the others. "

That's a pretty big difference to be unable to even compare with Qiu Chuji and Ma Yu, but be better than Wang Chuyi. In LOCH, I always thought Qiu Chuji and Wang Chuyi were the most powerful in terms of pure martial arts, but Ma Yu had higher inner strength cultivation. It seems Wang has slipped back even more. The above quote of course makes Wang and the others being unable to even compare to Qiu and Ma, which is pretty huge. I wonder how strong they actually are; 70% of Qiu?

[WuxiaMaster]

In LOCH, I believe the order was QCJ, MY and WCY (Hey, he got out alive from the Jin Manor).

Maybe WCY didn't improve as much since then.

[yittz]

I think so.

My impression was:
Qiu clearly best.
Ma Yu although the head disciple, lacked battle experience and will to fight. His internal always struck me as an equal to Qiu if not better.
Wang is a clear 3rd, he is more famous along with Qiu, for his feet/feat on a cliff edge.
Sun Bu Er is the weakest. Hao Da Tong also quite weak. Both weaker than the fisherman of Da Li.

In ROCH: ZZL improved even further, he was clearly ahead of fisherman and Da Er Ba and Hao Du, who in turn are clearly ahead of farmer, and the two weaker QZ elder present at heroes meeting.

[tape]

It's just so natural to assume that the 7 taoists are roughly equal to each other; surprising to see them so far apart. I wonder if the Wudang heroes are like that also; as the 2nd Hero should be the best, followed by the 1st, and then perhaps 4th 6th 7th.

[person135]

yeah QZ did get worse and worse every generation. first you have WCY, an elite. then you get to so the guys YG's age, who are basically crap.

[Ken Cheng]

yeah QZ did get worse and worse every generation. first you have WCY, an elite. then you get to so the guys YG's age, who are basically crap.

I've long maintained that a sect's third generation is where it all starts going to hell.

[Athena]

Personally, I believe that to be a mistake by Jin Yong that Zhu Ziliu has surpassed Wang Chuyi.
Throughout LOCH we learn the following:
Ouyang Ke was often ranked as equal to the mercenaries of Wanyan Honglie (Sha Tongtian, Peng Lianhu, etc.) but also he was also sometimes ranked as equal to Ma Yu, Qiu Chuji and Wang Chuyi.
In chapter 11 the part where Yang Tiexin met up with Qiu Chuji again after all those years, we can see that Peng Lianhu, Hou Tonghai and Ouyang Ke combined forces to attack Qiu Chuji. Qiu Chuji held his ground and reached a stalemate with them. If Ouyang Ke was equal to Qiu Chuji, with the assistance of two other peers of himself wouldn't he be able to kill Qiu Chuji rather fast? But that doesn't happen. A poisoned Ma Yu was able to ward off a combined attack of Sha Tongtian and Liang Ziweng (again two martial artists ranked as peers of Ouyang Ke) for a short while.
*1 Qiu Chuji began to lose when all of them (including Liang and Sha) attacked him.
Sha Tongtian, someone who was often ranked as equal to Ouyang Ke throughout the novel, clashed palms with Qiu Chuji. Qiu was only a bit shocked to see that this bald man could handle his palm attack, Sha's arm felt numb and pain, Qiu felt nothing. Sha Tongtian engaged Qiu Chuji again with bare hands, Qiu Chuji whisked him on his head with his fingers; leaving red imprints on the bald head of Sha. Qiu Chuji was able to force Peng Lianhu to drop one of his Judge's brushes in a few bouts.
It would seem that one on one, those mercenaries of Wanyan Honglie are inferior to Qiu Chuji (and subsequently Ma Yu and Wang Chuyi as well*2)

*1: This happened before Ma Yu was poisoned.
*2: Ma Yu, Qiu Chuji and Wang Chuyi were the three strongest of the Seven Masters. Ma Yu's fighting skills and technique wise profiency were said to be a bit inferior to Qiu Chuji and Wang Chuyi. (Although, I think he makes up for that with more stronger and abundant internal energy. Jin Yong never said that Ma Yu had the strongest or deepest internal strength compared to the others, but he did always stress that Ma Yu had deep and profound energy more than he did with the others). Suffice to say that all three of them were evenly matched (in my opinion).

My look at this is: How can Ouyang Ke be equal to the Seven Masters, and also to those mercenaries? Did Jin Yong mean that they belonged to the same class category? That is possible, but as equals that would seem untrue.
Lav ranked the weaker masters of Quanzhen as equals to the mercernaries (including Ouyang Ke), while Ma, Tan, Liu, Qiu, Wang were a notch better.
If you read some of Laviathan's posts on ranking LOCH and ROCH mid-level fighters in the past, you often would see that in his eyes Sun Bu'er (or Hao Datong)= Ouyang Ke. And later on in ROCH Hao and Sun = Da Er'ba and Huo Du.
Ma Yu, Qiu Chuji and Wang Chuyi's martial arts level should be closer to Mei Chaofeng than Ouyang Ke and the other Jin Empire mercenaries.
Ma, Qiu and Wang roughly Mei Chaofeng. Ouyang Ke is not a match for Mei.

On top of that, Ma Yu and Qiu Chuji were able to do some things that impressed Huang Yaoshi a bit.
Qiu Chuji was able to whisk Huang in the chest with his sleeve, but that was because Huang underestimated Qiu. But nonetheless, not bad for old Qiu.
Ma Yu counter-attacked Huang Yaoshi's attack during their battle in Misty Rain Pavilion. Huang Yaoshi stormed at Ma, assuming that Ma would not be able to do anything but move away from his key position in the formation. But Ma Yu raised his sword and counter-attacked. His technique was steady and firm, generated with powerful internal energy. Huang Yaoshi moved away and genuinly praised Ma Yue saying:"Worthy of being the Quanzhen head disciple!"

Back to Wang Chuyi, maybe the clue in defeating Zhu Ziliu lies in either a more profound and deeper understanding of martial arts and a more aggressive fighting style a la Qiu Chuji. Or the other key factor in defeating Zhu Ziliu is powerful internal energy. Most readers, including me, believe that Ma Yu has more internal power than the other masters.
So, perphaps Wang Chuyi maybe all-round equal to Qiu and Ma at the time of ROCH. However, he still fell behind in the martial arts proficiency area compared to Qiu and the internal energy wise inferior to Ma Yu leading to him being weaker than Zhu.
The best explanation would be a mistake by Jin Yong. Because it is implied and believed that Ma, Liu, Qiu and Wang are superior to Li Mochou. Zhu Ziliu is equal to Li Mochou, but if that's the case how can Wang be inferior to Zhu again.
Unless we have the A > B, but B = C, but then C > A equation.

The fisherman should be inferior to Hao Datong, during the first heroes' meet we know the author's commentary that the three strongest experts (who were combat able at the moment) on the side of the Han Chinese were Guo Jing, Zhu Ziliu and Hao Datong. The fisherman was not mentioned in that list.

Tape, you're right to assume that there is a discrepancy in the Wudang heroes too. Although the gaps are not that obvious as in the case of the Quanzhen masters.

[tape]

Right I think he just placed them in rough classes, because to me the Jin flunkies are definitely much weaker than Ouyang Ke. It makes a bit more sense if he classifies people that are +/- 20% or so in the same class, so Sa/Peng could be 20% weaker than Ouyang, while Ouyang is 20% weaker than Qiu, so Qiu is actually fighting someone at 80% of his level and 2 people 60% of his level. It makes a bit more sense that way, but it really defeats the purpose of placing individuals on a certain level.

[WuxiaMaster]

Wait a minute here... Qiu Chu Ji is BETTER than Li Mo Chou?! O_O

I always thought he was much weaker...

Li Mo Chou was the main secondary villian in the story and just about the strongest villian beside GWM. (She's about 1 tier below GWM?)

How can QCJ (or MY) be better than LMC?! O_O

That means QCJ is almost up there with GWM???

That just sounds wrong to me...

I always thought the 2nd Gen QZ disciples were like spread out around Huo Du Level...

[PJ]

The difference between Qiu Chuji and Li Mochou is not big. But the diff between Li/Qiu and Golden Wheel Monk is huge.

[Ken Cheng]

Wait a minute here... Qiu Chu Ji is BETTER than Li Mo Chou?! O_O

I always thought he was much weaker...

Li Mo Chou was the main secondary villian in the story and just about the strongest villian beside GWM. (She's about 1 tier below GWM?)

Lee Mok Sau was deadly dangerous and ruthless, which is why many feared her, but there are a number of characters in ROCH whose martial arts surpass hers and are *not* Greats:

1. Cheun Jen Disciples Ma Yuk and Yau Chui Gei (and probably Wong Chui 1 as well)

2. Wong Yung

3. Gung Sheun Tze

4. Mongol mercenaries Wan Hak Sai, Siu Seung Tze, and Lui Mor Singh (individually)

5. Chu Tze Lau (possibly; I'm not 100% sure about this one)

Additionally, Fung Mak Fung, one of East Heretic Wong Yerk See's students, was almost able to equal her and he was crippled. Wong Yerk See believed that had his any of his other original students (Chan Yeun Fung, Mui Chiu Fung, Luk Sing Fung, Kuk Ling Fung, Mo Min Fung) still been alive and were at full strength, any one of them could have handled Lee Mok Sau.

By the end of ROCH, it's likely that Ching Ying and Yeh Lut Chai had also surpassed Lee Mok Sau's level, and various people who became Yeung Gor's friends and allies and attended Gwok Seung's sixteenth birthday part were also likely more powerful than Lee Mok Sau.

So despite her menace, Lee Mok Sau actually had quite a few betters in the martial arts department, including Yau Chui Gei.

[WuxiaMaster]

I initially thought LMC was very strong because GWM fought with her and was unable to defeat her after a hundred (?) stances...

That means GWM is actually NOT that far away from LMC...

And GWM ~= GJ (cannot determine winner within 1000 exchanges)

And QCJ > LMC?

But QCJ can't even take a few blows from HYS, who is equal to GJ.

...

I dunno. All these sounds out of place to me.

...

Or maybe GWM just sucks.

He is WAY AHEAD of LMC but couldn't even beat her after 100 exchanges.

[Dennis Chen]

Who do y'all think could have reached Greats status (completely equal to the 4 Greats) with 9 yin?

[Ken Cheng]

I initially thought LMC was very strong because GWM fought with her and was unable to defeat her after a hundred (?) stances...

That means GWM is actually NOT that far away from LMC...

And GWM ~= GJ (cannot determine winner within 1000 exchanges)

And QCJ > LMC?

But QCJ can't even take a few blows from HYS, who is equal to GJ.

...

I dunno. All these sounds out of place to me.

...

Or maybe GWM just sucks.

He is WAY AHEAD of LMC but couldn't even beat her after 100 exchanges.

Nor could the Golden Wheel Monk beat Little Dragon Girl, and for the same reason:

Practitioners of Ancient Tomb Sect martial arts are *fast*...so fast that most opponents (including Greats-level fighters) have a hard time hitting them. When the Golden Wheel Monk fought Lee Mok Sau, he couldn't land a hit on her, but by the same token, Lee Mok Sau couldn't mount any kind of meaningful counteroffense at all. For the most part, she was expending all of her energy evading the Golden Wheel Monk's strikes.

The Golden Wheel Monk might not land a strike on Lee Mok Sau all day, but if even *one* strike connects, she goes down hard...probably for good.

On the other hand, if Lee Mok Sau lands a hit on the Golden Wheel Monk, without the benefit of poison, she might do little or no damage at all.

Don't forget: a Wong Yung who was at less than 100% capacity (after having very recently given birth to twins under dire circumstances) was easily able to defeat Lee Mok Sau. We're not also going to conclude that Wong Yung was better than the Golden Wheel Monk, are we (there's plenty of evidence to the contrary)?

[odbayarb2000]

I think Jin Yong Said himself that Ma Yu and QCJ are stronger than LMC in over all combat. QCJ is well rounded fighter he can handle LMC. I believe. But Ma Yu maybe get tricked and poisoned.

[kyss of the sword]

the author may have been talking about his level at the martial arts meet. twenty years ago, he was the weakest of yideng's disciples but after twenty years, he was the strongest. ma yu had the best skills actually, qiu qiji the second. when ZBT mentioned their skills to G, he hadn't seen them in 16yrs. quanzhen's skill are based on inner power, so the higher your inner power, the higher your skills. wang was the third. after zhu zuili improved he was superior to all of them except mayu and QQJ.

LMC was said to a level lower then JLFW so she may be higher then the quanzhen seven slightly. through she was also said to be in the same level as zhu zuili. she was able to defeat wu santong a few times, but he was the weakest of the four. when the quanzhen elders went to fight LMC, LMC requested a one on one fight against sun bu er. LMC defeated her by hitting her with her icy needles and then offered the antidote to the quanzhen elders. they could not continue the battle after that.

[Athena]

The Zhu Ziliu - Wang Chuyi discrepancy is either an author's overlook or a classic case of the A>B, but B=C however C> A equation.

Li Mochou used little Guo Xiang as a human shield when she felt overwhelmed by the Golden Wheel Monk. He wanted to baby Guo Xiang alive as a hostage, so he held back. Secondly, Li Mochou could be the expert that has the most combat experience in the entire ROCH (perhaps even LOCH too). She has fought numerous people and knows very well how to adapt and be versatile in all kinds of combat situations.
The Golden Wheel Monk lived an area which in general is not that densely populated and therefore also not a lot of martial arts practitioners. He lacks so much more combat experience than Li Mochou (this is a fact which was mentioned by the author as one of the reasons to explain why Li Mochou could keep the Golden Wheel Monk at bay).
Secondly, the concept of one level beneath someone is very abstract.
In DGSD, Murong Fu, Xuan generation Shaolin monks and so one are one level lower than Murong Bo, Xiao Yuanshan, Xiao Feng and Jiumozhi. However, those four can easily kill any of those experts, which was proven several times.
In LOCH starting from chapter 28, the author began to rank Guo Jing as one level inferior to Qiu Qianren and Ouyang Feng at different parts. We know that at that time there was a still a significant gap between Guo Jing and the other Greats. However, Guo was still ranked one level below the Greats.
In the Duke of Mount Deer, we learn that Feng Xifan, Wu Liuqi, the fat and skinny Dhuta, Lu Gaoxuan and others were around the same level. We learn that Madame Hong (the wife of Hong Antong) ranked Feng Xifan as one level beneath Hong Antong and Hong Antong could easily kill his subordinates in one on one battles.
One level weaker does not mean the gap is very small.

Li Mochou should be weaker than the four masters of Quanzhen (Ma Yu, Liu Chuxuan, Qiu Chuji and Wang Chuyi. Li Mochou was afraid of those old Taoist priests of the Quanzhen school and she said that if she had studied and mastered the Art of the Jade Maiden she would not fear them in combat. The only Masters she met were Liu Chuxuan, Qiu Chuji, Wang Chuyi and Sun Bu'er. As we know that Sun Bu'er is not a match for Li Mochou (and Huang Rong) and she was also defeated by Li (although not in a very fair match but nevertheless defeated), the old Taoist priests she feared in combat were Liu, Qiu and Wang. We know that Ma is at least as good as Liu, Qiu and Wang, so it is likely Ma is superior to Li Mochou too.

[pannonian]

Lee Mok Sau was deadly dangerous and ruthless, which is why many feared her, but there are a number of characters in ROCH whose martial arts surpass hers and are *not* Greats:

5. Chu Tze Lau (possibly; I'm not 100% sure about this one)

ROCH chapter 32:

Yang Guo was confused, “Li Mochou is not inferior to Zhu Ziliu; how
could she be afraid like that? What about the Divine Indian Monk?” Those
two actually possessed almost the same level of martial skills, but in
term of lightness kungfu, Li Mochou was a step superior. Therefore, Zhu
Ziliu was not able to catch up, plus he was bleeding profusely.

[Patudo]

Regarding Ouyang Ke's level: When exactly did he learn the Spirit Snake Fist? That probably gave him a significant power boost. Maybe without it he really isn't that far above Sha Tongtian etc. That was one hell of a power boost though, because as I recall (please correct me if I'm wrong) Guo Jing needed to familiarize himself with all 18 Xianglong Palms to draw with Ouyang Ke and didn't become superior till he learned the Jiuyin text.

Someone (Li Mochou?) rated Yelu Qi on a level with Sun Bu'er the first time they encounter each other in combat. That's a pretty good effort by Yelu, given that Sun had a considerable head start on him, not to mention having been taught by Wang Chongyang himself.

[Athena]

When Ouyang Ke first was introduced in the novel he had always known the 'Spirit Snake Fist'. He was just instructed to never use it unless absolutely necessary by Ouyang Feng.
Personally I believe Ouyang Ke to be > Sha Tongtian, etc. But also the top Quanzhen Masters > Ouyang Ke.

Li Mochou did think that Yelu Qi was about the same as Sun Bu'er. However, I have somewhat difficulty swallowing that. It's more likely that Yelu Qi was superior than any of the 3rd generation disciples but weaker than the Quanzhen Masters. Although, I do feel that his level is just a notch below that of Sun Bu'er and Hao Datong.

【達爾巴和霍都的武功與郝大通等在伯仲之間，雖不及丘處機、王處一的精湛，但也決不致只一招便給擲開。】
We have this comment by the author in the novel. 'Daerba and Huo Du's martial arts were equal to Hao Datong and other(s), although not as good Qiu Chuji and Wang Chuyi, but they couldn't be defeated by them either witin one stance.'
The word others refer to the other members of the Quanzhen masters, it couldn't refer to Qiu, Wang and Ma. Because Ma Yu was already dead by that time, Qiu and Wang were ranked higher than Da'erba, Huo Du and Hao Datong. Liu Chuxuan was indirectly ranked and hinted as better than Li Mochou. So, the other(s) in that comment can only refer to Sun Bu'er. Bascially that means Sun Bu'er, Hao Datong, Huo Du and Da'erba are roughly equals.