Would pre-Ming Dynasty wuxia characters find Europeans *really* weird-looking?

[Ken Cheng]

In DUKE OF MT. DEER (or at least the 1984 TVB adaptation thereof), Seung-yee was quite shocked when she first encountered Russians. She had never seen or heard of Europeans before, and she thought they looked *really* strange and scary. Wai Siu Bo might also have had the same reaction, but he was slightly better prepared to meet the Russians because he had heard about gwailo while working in Emperor Kang Hsi's court.

By the time of the Qing Dynasty, there had been semiregular contact between China and Europe for several centuries already. Although most Chinese had still never seen a European (hence, Seung-yee's reaction), Europeans were not completely unknown in China by the DOMD era.

But what if a European were to show up much earlier in Jin Yong's timeline? Imagine if an Englishman showed up in DGSD, LOCH, ROCH, HSDS, or even SPW. Would the characters of those novels have found a Western European to be *really* strange (to the point that they might mistake him/her for a ghost or monster), or would a European not even be as strange as some of the people they encounter in wulin?

[timeless]

The more savage looking Caucasian men most ignorant Chinese might have called them barbarians/foreign devils/red-haired peoples regardless of what was their hair colors (without euphemism- red haired devils, with respectful euphemism- golden haired folks) unless adoption of Chinese culture might helped some to become accepted. The ladies on the other hand may be highly valued/prized as 'foreign beauties'.

[Candide]

timeless, that's universal among pretty much every country / major ethnic group in those times (and still true to a large extent now). The men of another group usually are hairy arseholes that you gotta get rid of. Their women OTOH often are valuable.

Ken, WXB's reaction was to pimp the whole lot of them: Russians and Swedes.

[timeless]

Ken, WXB's reaction was to pimp the whole lot of them: Russians and Swedes.

That's the whole idea. Men love Women.

[yittz]

That's the whole idea. Men love Women.

And what Women thinks really didn't matter.

(back then, before I get flamed for being sexist)

[Patudo]

There were occasional Western European visitors to the Central Plains certainly as far back as the Yuan Dynasty, Marco Polo and his uncles being the most famous. The Mongol invasions, savage though they were, also had the effect of stabillizing a huge area, allowing travellers to move around in relative safety. This later changed as the different Khanates started to bicker amongst themselves but for a period of maybe 100-150 years Central Asia was as safe as it probably has ever been. The siege of Xiangyang was historically facilitated by Arab engineers familiar with siege warfare that Kublai borrowed from his kinsmen in the west.

The people of the big cities of China would have been familiar with Caucasian looking people from before that. Some ethnologists believe that people of Indo-European origin migrated into Central Asia and adopted practices such as Buddhism. Today of course the ethnic makeup of people in that region has undergone significant change thanks to migration and warfare, but some groups of these people seem to have been recognizably Caucasian looking as late as the 5th to 6th century AD. Other migrations of European peoples into Iran, India and Central Asia happened following the conquests of Alexander - there were some odd mixtures of Greek and Indian culture in kingdoms in the area of what is now Afghanistan. There was significant trade between China and the Central Asian civilisations, such as Sogdiana and Bactria, during the Han and Tang dynasties when the emperors extended trade links into the west. There is a well known anecdote of a Han Emperor obtaining a few thousand horses for his cavalry arm from a place called Ferghana, somewhere in Central Asia. Ferghana was one of the most remote outposts of Alexander's empire and was settled by a group of wounded and veterans from his army. Merchants from these places would have entered the Central Plains on business and would have developed contacts with the local population. Not just merchants - a fellow called An Lushan (believed by some to be a Chinese transliteration of the Central Asian name Rokhshan) became a general in the Tang army, later rebelling and setting himself up as emperor of a state called Yan (Not the same as the Murongs' Yan). An Lushan certainly spoke Chinese as probably did many others of his people. It actually is quite amazing just how cosmopolitan Tang China appeared to be. Merchants from Southeast Asia setting up shop in Guangzhou, Nestorian Christians, Jews and Muslims practising in Chang'an and so on.

NB. I believe Yin Kexi from ROCH was one of these non-ethnic Han peoples, as he is described as a member of the Hu ethnicity with brown hair and so on. Oddly enough, he's also a merchant. There is a reference to dancing girls from the western region accompanying Ouyang Feng, one of Zhao Min's subordinates was described as a bearded guy with blue eyes, etc.

What the Chinese thought of the foreigners is pretty hard to tell. Probably there was a good dose of xenophobia but most likely there were certain aspects of the foreign cultures - music, sport (it's said there are old paintings of Chinese people playing the Central Asian sport of polo) and so on. I guess it's not too different to Chinese youth today listening to MTV and playing football. If what we see today is any indication there was probably at least some attraction between the different races too.

[Dennis Chen]

Caucasian looking people have been traveling to China since the beginning of the Silk Road.

[Ken Cheng]

Caucasian looking people have been traveling to China since the beginning of the Silk Road.

Sure, but only a comparative handful. Certainly, our characters from DGSD, LOCH, ROCH, HSDS, and SPW didn't encounter any (that we know of). I wonder what their initial reaction might have been to a European visitor.

[shortsight]

In general, Chinese probably thinks the Europeans are weird (red/white hair, blue eyes, pointed nose, huge body ...) else wouldn't have called them "gwai"-lo??

[Ken Cheng]

In general, Chinese probably thinks the Europeans are weird (red/white hair, blue eyes, pointed nose, huge body ...) else wouldn't have called them "gwai"-lo??

True, but I wonder if the reaction would be more, "Hmmm. Those guys look odd. I wonder where they're from" or more, "AIEEEEEEEE!!! Ghosts! Monsters! Run for your lives!!!"

[shortsight]

Based on HK vampire movies, I guess they will run for their lives thinking they had just stumbled upon some out of blood vampires. Probably I would be running away too if I had live in ancient China.

[Banh Mi]

If that horrible Jet Li spin of off SPW is any indication, they would start throwing palms en mass and slaughter the defenceless foreigners with their pitiful muskets.

[timeless]

Caucasian looking people have been traveling to China since the beginning of the Silk Road.

Yes, the historical records describe the presence of colored-haired caucasians engaged in commerce in capital cities such as Chang An coming from as far as Europe even long before Marco Polo.

[Son of Light]

Chinese were in contact with caucasians ever since the Tang Dynasty.

[Ken Cheng]

Chinese were in contact with caucasians ever since the Tang Dynasty.

Maybe even earlier, but not the everyday Chinese. Merchants, envoys, and perhaps some members of the imperial court might have encountered Caucasians, but the average Chinese on the street, not so likely.

[CC]

Hmm, what would be stranger to them?

A red haired hairy white human (say a Nordic) or a relatively hairless extremely dark human (from central Africa)

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

In the more metropolitan centres it would be quite common, remember the people of the steppes could have quite divers appearances.

The more rural areas would be more superstitious.