View Poll Results: At the end of LOCH, Who would win?

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  • Feng'Feng

    12 46.15%
  • Tong'Tong

    14 53.85%
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Thread: End of LOCH: Ouyang Feng vs Zhou Botong

  1. #1
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Default End of LOCH: Ouyang Feng vs Zhou Botong

    At the end of LOCH, both Ouyang Feng and Zhou Botong were slightly above the other Greats. If Feng'er and TongTong were to engage in combat, who would win?
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Zhou Botong wins.

    He has the complete 9 Yin and has internalized the whole manual while teaching Guo Jing. He tries not to use any 9 Yin MA, but it's a lost cause because it's become a part of him. He has his full faculties... and therefore can utilize everything he has. He's also a better martial artist... evidenced by creating at least two different MA; 72 Vacant Fist and Split-Mind/Left-Right.

    Ouyang Feng has a messed up 9 Yin and it's not only inferior, but also caused him to lose his faculties. He created the Snake-Fist (?), but it's inferior since he was relying on it being a surprise... not on its virtuosity. All his other MA are apparently inherited... even the Snake-Staff technique seems to have been mostly inherited.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    If Feng'er and TongTong were to engage in combat, who would win?

    lol i like

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    Senior Member flamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahoxan View Post
    Zhou Botong wins.

    He has the complete 9 Yin and has internalized the whole manual while teaching Guo Jing. He tries not to use any 9 Yin MA, but it's a lost cause because it's become a part of him. He has his full faculties... and therefore can utilize everything he has. He's also a better martial artist... evidenced by creating at least two different MA; 72 Vacant Fist and Split-Mind/Left-Right.

    Ouyang Feng has a messed up 9 Yin and it's not only inferior, but also caused him to lose his faculties. He created the Snake-Fist (?), but it's inferior since he was relying on it being a surprise... not on its virtuosity. All his other MA are apparently inherited... even the Snake-Staff technique seems to have been mostly inherited.
    So if Sweeper Monk did not create his own martial arts, he sucks?
    Guo Jing did not create his own MA.
    YG created one, sourcing from his other MAs.
    XF did not not create his own MA.
    DY/XZ did not create their own MA.
    the list goes on...

  5. #5
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Actually, Feng'er's fighting spirit at the end of LOCH resembled that of a close relative: Xiao Feng. At Juxian Manor, Feng'er (Xiao) was busting out moves that were inconceivable in people's wildest dreams. Actually, this was exactly how his father handled the Hans 30 years ago too, as Reverend Zhiguang recounted. And this was also Ouyang Feng's claim to victory: by attacking people in ways they could not have conceived/predicted, defying common expectation.

    Most people in Jin Yong wuxia seem to fight "by the rules"; it's mind-boggling to me that fighters can go at it for hundreds of stances, firing one palm after another in the same fashion, which seems too static and robotic to me. The only justification I can think of is that their main objective was to compete martial arts, where it's apparently necessary to stick to only martial arts (and not much creativity).

    Even people who have creative martial arts, such as Yang Guo's Sad Palms, did not seem to take much advantage of using them creatively. But I can see someone like Xiao Feng (and Shi Potian in trance mode) taking control of a fight (with an opponent of equal martial arts) due to their moves, and their mind, not being constrained by form. In other words, formless**.

    ** This is not to suggest the Feng'ers (Xiao and Ouyang) have reached the sacred stage of formlessness, but I would say that they have indeed demonstrated partial formlessness.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    In Xiao Feng's case, it was that his competency at those martial arts moves was beyond people's imagination and ability. It's not really as if XF was using creative and out of this world stances like OYF.

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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Furthermore, trickery is a common thing in martial arts (HYS's martial arts have a lot of that in fact).

    The problem is that OYF was using unimaginable trickery. He would be struck at an accupoint, but the accupoint would have moved somewhere else. Or he'd suddenly bite but his teeth wouldn't break under the pressure (of HYS's Divine Finger Snap). Or suddenly flip upside-down but still somehow still fight as well as if he wasn't. And so on.

    It wasn't all spelled out but the gist is that he was doing things that shouldn't be physically possible (most notably reversing your accupoints).

  8. #8
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Yes, good fighters do often use trickery against weaker opponents, there are many examples. But against an equal opponent, I see them mostly use straight up "I hit you, you hit me back" type of static palm exchanges. It's much harder to apply trickery on an equal opponent.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    ZBT had learned the skills in 9yin except for the sanskrit portion. his inner power still a bit below the great when he had first accidentally learned it, but after two years, he should have made great strides even without the sanskrit portion. the reverse 9yin may be inferior to the full 9yin but no one except for GJ had learnt the full 9yin version. ZBT had advantage in stances due to his mutual hands combat, even without 9yin. but against OYF at my hua, i think he would have lost, but years later during ROCH, he might be better as he kept improving and all the great acknowledge he was slightly superior.
    THE KYSS OF THE SWORD IS DEADLY BUT EXQUSITE
    he's the strongest in history but he's the disciple.
    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/histor...ciple_kenichi/

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Yes, good fighters do often use trickery against weaker opponents, there are many examples. But against an equal opponent, I see them mostly use straight up "I hit you, you hit me back" type of static palm exchanges. It's much harder to apply trickery on an equal opponent.

    I'd say using trickery usually leaves you a bit open to attack if your trick were to fail and they'd rather not chance that and fight carefully and hope for an opening. Tricks usually only work on the inexperienced, because Greats probably have been there and done that years ago. Being a Great, they are also naturally better at reading opponents and seeing the intention of moves.

    All these opinions come from fighting games which I used to play competitively back then. It seems it's pretty applicable, as you'll see tons of tricks and gimmicks among equal lower level players, as well as higher level versus lower level players, but it's pretty rare amongst high level versus high level players. It's usually better to play fundamentally correct and see if you can outthink/outlast your opponent mentally and hope they screw up or that you are just purely better fundamentally. Failing that, once you realize you're a tad worst, then maybe you go for a trick since you're going to lose anyway.

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    My best friend and I played Soul Calibur I to death. When we first started, we just rushed in and button smashed. Then we got to know the characters and each other's playing style. It became a waiting game, waiting for the other guy to attack. That lasted not very long as the fights became slow and we'd often run out of time. So we moved to the next level, small hits to make the other guy react so a bigger move can be chained in. At the end,with knowledge and experience under our belts, we got back to the beginning: attack first, small attack, medium attackor big attack, it didn't matter, the point was to gain initiative.

  12. #12
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    I'd say using trickery usually leaves you a bit open to attack if your trick were to fail and they'd rather not chance that and fight carefully and hope for an opening. Tricks usually only work on the inexperienced, because Greats probably have been there and done that years ago. Being a Great, they are also naturally better at reading opponents and seeing the intention of moves.

    All these opinions come from fighting games which I used to play competitively back then. It seems it's pretty applicable, as you'll see tons of tricks and gimmicks among equal lower level players, as well as higher level versus lower level players, but it's pretty rare amongst high level versus high level players. It's usually better to play fundamentally correct and see if you can outthink/outlast your opponent mentally and hope they screw up or that you are just purely better fundamentally. Failing that, once you realize you're a tad worst, then maybe you go for a trick since you're going to lose anyway.
    I mostly agree. But then again: no risk, no gain; and that's why fights tend to last forever in Jin Yong universe. Thankfully, Jin Yong's descriptions make them exciting enough.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    I think it's a matter of preference as well. Mo Da from SPW has a style that was influenced by illusionists so it was heavily reliant on deception.

    Ren Woxing beat the abbott by threatening Yu Canghai. But it only worked because the abbott was merciful, so innocent people can be used against him. Against other fighters, I don't think you can pull that on anyone short of a loved one, you'd probably end up getting hit yourself for pulling yourself away from an attack.

    Zuo Lengchan had a surprise waiting for Ren Woxing when he injected his previous 10 year's training of qi into that one ice attack, it was his main strategy to win.

    I think if given the chance they'd do it, just there aren't many opportunities for it, and some characters might hold themselves to an honour code except against a sworn enemy.

  14. #14
    Senior Member goodrick's Avatar
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    I think Ouyang Feng wins this as he was the greatest after LOCH although it was short lived as he went crazy

  15. #15
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Anyway, continuing the side conversation about fights dragging on for hours, this is why something like Dugu 9 Swords is refreshing. It doesn't go by convention. It takes much more risk, and because Linghu Chong was so smart, the risks paid off handsomely.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  16. #16
    Senior Member goodrick's Avatar
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    its hard to get any sort of concensus when only 13 people vote!

  17. #17
    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodrick View Post
    its hard to get any sort of concensus when only 13 people vote!
    Thats because Yang Guo is not a subject in this thread/poll.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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