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Thread: What makes Qiu Qianren 95% or so of greats?

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    Default What makes Qiu Qianren 95% or so of greats?

    It seems that it's generally accepted that QQR is around 90-95% of the Greats, but in LOCH, he seems significantly below them, namely his encounters with Guo Jing. His first real appearance clashing with Guo Jing at the Beggar's Sect meeting was horribly unimpressive. He used what seemed to be full powered palms, and Guo Jing was able to withstand it. Qiu also thought that he would not be able to defeat him very quickly and was very impressed by his martial arts. The latter fights are even more even, and though Guo Jing usually has some slight advantage due to terrain or something to even it up, it's still pretty far from what he experiences against true Greats.

    Against Huang Yaoshi, Guo Jing stumbles taking a palm immediately, and against Ouyang Feng he is pretty much defeated handily anytime they meet. Even as late as the Mount Hua tournament, when he has reached his peak in LOCH (and we assume the Greats are more or less equal the same as when they first appeared as they probably don't improve much in the year or two that LOCH takes places in), once Huang Yaoshi stops going easy on Guo Jing, even though Guo is in total defense mode, he begins to stumble after only a hundred stances. A full powered Hong Qi Gong can knock him down in a few palms, and though Guo took his full powered palm at the end, he was clearly going to lose in a matter of minutes.

    Qiu never showed that ability. He always had trouble, and GJ was always able to match him enough to escape, or until help came or whatever. This had nothing to do with cowardice like GWM, because Qiu always knew he was better and was never afraid, he just wasn't able to overcome him the way the Greats easily could. As readers, if Guo were to fight a Great, we know he would lose no matter what, but when he fights Qiu, there's always a chance he can win. I think Qiu, as portrayed and judged by fights we saw, is only 80% or so of a great.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Do you notice a similar unimpressiveness as Golden Wheel Monk? I see some similarities: both are supposed to be as good as a Great, but in combat, they perform embarrassingly against the protagonist.

    This is why some ppl think GWM is only Great-level on paper, but in combat, he's one notch below.
    Quote Originally Posted by CC
    So what if 1000 arrows are targetted at our wuxia hero? LHC's missile breaking stance can deflect thousands of projectiles in 1 stance and send them back to the enemy. The more arrows the better!

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    At least GWM had some brief moments to shine; his initial palm clash with Guo Jing, his beating of Yideng later on (more or less), tying with Zhou Botong, and generally being the strongest/most powerful but weakest in technique and mentality.

    I find Qiu much weaker in everything it seemed. Even though he was known for his lightness kungfu, I don't think anyone would get the impression he could beat any Great (even if he could). His Iron Palms should be super strong, but a young Guo Jing matched him so early on without completely being overwhelmed like he should have been. He's just never even a threat it seems, at least Wheelie is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    At least GWM had some brief moments to shine; his initial palm clash with Guo Jing, his beating of Yideng later on (more or less), tying with Zhou Botong, and generally being the strongest/most powerful but weakest in technique and mentality.

    I find Qiu much weaker in everything it seemed. Even though he was known for his lightness kungfu, I don't think anyone would get the impression he could beat any Great (even if he could). His Iron Palms should be super strong, but a young Guo Jing matched him so early on without completely being overwhelmed like he should have been. He's just never even a threat it seems, at least Wheelie is.
    His qing gong was marginally better than Zhou Botong's when the latter chased him all over China. Zhou Botong's qing gong was noticeably better than Ouyang Feng's and Huang Yaoshi's when they competed. Ouyang Feng and Huang Yaoshi had a few chances early on to beat up Guo Jing and look good. By the time Qiu Qianren met Guo Jing, he'd signficantly improved, and in the fight in the hut, there wasn't much difference between Ouyang Feng, Qiu Qianren and Zhou Botong, in fighting against each other or in their performance against Guo Jing.

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    I don't think Qiu Qianren is 95% of the greats. I consider this as one of the many flaws in Jin Yong's writing and portrayal of skills of martial artists.

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    Kau Cheen Yan might be a case of what Jin Yong tells us being inconsistent with what he shows us. He is known to do this. Maybe we've bought into the general maxim that Kau Cheen Yan is 95% of a Great without considering his actual performances.

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    Senior Member kyss of the sword's Avatar
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    i don't think QQR is 95% of great level. he is great level. even without a single bit of 9yin, he was considered equal to the greats during ROCH and yideng might only win by a move after a thousand moves. he never actually lost a single battle till he fought YG. he ran into a diasdvantage against ZBT's mutual hands combat and was chased all over, thinking he couldn't win, he was prepared to commit suacide but found out about ZBT's fear of snakes and frightened him away. any of the other greats would have the same problem with mutual hands combat. when he fought against GJ, GJ had made a lot of improvements from when he earlier fought with OYF and the only reason GJ was able to hold on was because HR attacked QQR from the back and diverted his attention. after wards, when QQR, OYF, ZBT and GJ fought inside the stone house, GJ had improved enough to be considered an expert and hold his own in the melee. the only one QQR feared was WCY who was clearly superior. QQR gave up at huashan because he was surrounded and because his conscious was woken up.
    THE KYSS OF THE SWORD IS DEADLY BUT EXQUSITE
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    His first appearance at the Beggar Clan meeting when he matched with Guo Jing for a while is very unimpressive. At that point, GJ had not met Yideng yet and only had very very basic 9 Yin knowledge (just began to understand the Big Dipper and a couple months with Hong teaching them the Bone/Tendon formula) and was nowhere near Great level. Just a month ago Ouyang Feng launched a blow at Huang Yaoshi then rebounded to Guo Jing and everyone including Guo Jing himself was surprised he was able to dodge the blow.

    This is the type of stuff I'm talking about. Against Ouyang Feng, he's lucky to have dodged a blow and everybody is impressed. Against Qiu Qianren, he's able to match his palms and give the impression of being inferior but able to put up a decent fight. Huang Rong + Guo Jing on the island briefly before had no chance at all against Ouyang Feng, even with 9 Yin and Dog Beating Stick. Against QQR, Guo Jing can hold his own and even gain a slight advantage when paired up with Huang Rong. Going by that fight, Guo Jing + 2 Quan Zhen elders with no formation should easily be enough to match Haung Yaoshi if QQR is indeed 95% of them, as 2 Quan Zhen Elders are much better than young Huang Rong.

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    Senior Member kyss of the sword's Avatar
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    QQR did not match palms with GJ at the begger meet. they just matched their energy transferring skill. GJ had seen the quanzhen elders fight HYS in the big dipper formation and spent some time learning the big dipper formation which was the crux of 9yin martial arts. he made a huge leap in martial arts from that. also he had learned the tendon strengthening muscle forging skill so he was able to release his inner power in powerful amounts. through he still couldn't match the deep level of the greats inner power, he could match the force of their palms for several moves, through he would run out of energy faster then the greats. in the stone house, the four fighters changed opponents randomly and QQR was able to fight with OYF's fierce power and ZBT's skillful moves.
    THE KYSS OF THE SWORD IS DEADLY BUT EXQUSITE
    he's the strongest in history but he's the disciple.
    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/histor...ciple_kenichi/

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    This is the translation from wuxiapedia. This is at the Beggar's meeting before he gets the 9 Yin boost from Yideng. If you think that a Great will ever be in this circumstance against Guo Jing at this point, then I don't have much to say. But to me, clearly this puts QQR at a level closer to Guo Jing than a level closer to the Greats. This is only mid book Guo Jing, and we know he is only 70% or so at best at end of LOCH, so what is he now? 50% of a great?

    "Qiu Qianren knew that Guo Jing transmitted his energy in such a way that it was heavy in a distant and light nearby; the Beggar Clan disciples only suffer light force, while the ones they bumped actually bear the brunt of the energy. Immediately he pushed and redirected one beggar to an empty space, and then with a grunt both of his palms struck toward the other beggar's back. This time he was using his life-long cultivated Iron Palm energy. If his strength exceeded Guo Jing's, then not only he could counteract the incoming force, but he could also inflict heavy injury to the beggar; otherwise, even if he would not suffer injury, he would certainly be knocked down backwards.

    The Beggar Clan's Four Elders and Huang Rong knew that in this pair of palms Qiu Qianren was staking it all to compete head-to-head against Guo Jing; the stake between victory and defeat was not small. They were watching with rapt attention. But as the palms thrust out, the eight-bag disciple flew another 'zhang', and then lightly landed on the ground. He was at a loss for a moment before turning around and went back to face Guo Jing. Surprisingly he did not suffer any injury at all.

    In one hand the Four Elders of the Beggar Clan found out that Guo Jing's martial art was about the same level with Qiu Qianren's; perhaps Guo Jing was somewhat inferior, but the difference was not too much. They were astonished and scared. On the other hand Huang Rong was even more surprised, she thought, "This Old Swindler's martial art is just ordinary, how can he block Jing Gege's palm strength? He was obviously using real power, not some crafty trick. He is really difficult to predict."

    With this one move Qiu Qianren had tested Guo Jing's true skill. In term of internal energy cultivation he was still superior to Guo Jing by half a notch; but it was difficult to say whether this kid was a friend or a foe of the Beggar Clan. Qiu Qianren was in a dangerous place. It was not worthwhile to continue fighting; hence he waved his right hand and took the Iron Palm Clan people to leave that place. "

    The fact that he considered Guo Jing a threat is a joke. Ouyang Feng had no trouble confidently walking into a Mongolian camp against an even more powerful Guo Jing who had days to set traps and ambushes with elite warriors.

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    OYF was confident but he didn't realize how much GJ's skills had improved. the time GJ fought with QQR, he fought with HYS soon after, then with OYF again. he held his own for a while in those battles, even through he would have lost after a while. OYF had overwhelming force in his palms. HYS had less force but more variations and clever changes, QQR's palm skills were in the middle of those two, more force then HYS but more changes then HL18Z.
    THE KYSS OF THE SWORD IS DEADLY BUT EXQUSITE
    he's the strongest in history but he's the disciple.
    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/histor...ciple_kenichi/

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    The more the thread goes, the more QQR slides down the ranking. In fact, I used to think QQR was much further below the greats and only his lightness skill could match them judging from the way ZBT toy with him, but was quickly censured by the forum elders

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    He did last a while against Pre-16 years Yang Guo. And he did last 24 hours against his fellow Doubted-Great Golden Wheel Monk.

    Also, it was stated that he is only like 0.5% inferior to Yideng, and on a good day, Yideng at best could win by half a stance.

    Surely those amount to something?

    His greatest moments seem to be offline rather than live.
    Quote Originally Posted by CC
    So what if 1000 arrows are targetted at our wuxia hero? LHC's missile breaking stance can deflect thousands of projectiles in 1 stance and send them back to the enemy. The more arrows the better!

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    Well, I guess this is going by LOCH then. I think he is much more impressive in ROCH too, since he actually had feats. With textual evidence in LOCH, he seems to be 75-80% of a Great or so, and perhaps caught up with the Greats in ROCH despite his buddhist training since he was a bit younger (was he?).

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    In LOCH, Guo Jing nevertheless felt Qiu was on par with Hong Qigong. So I think Jin Yong intended Qiu to be about >=95% of a Great all along. He was simply put to a disadvantage against the main character (by Jin Yong), which many other auxiliary characters have suffered also.
    Quote Originally Posted by CC
    So what if 1000 arrows are targetted at our wuxia hero? LHC's missile breaking stance can deflect thousands of projectiles in 1 stance and send them back to the enemy. The more arrows the better!

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    I think in terms of pure martial arts, Qiu Qianren is equal to all 4 Greats. But in a full on battle, unlike say Hong Qigong or Ouyang Feng, it didn't seem as if Qiu Qianren could adapt; Hong Qigong and Ouyang Feng was always shown to be thinking, thinking, thinking, new styles, new ways to defeat each other. Qiu Qianren seemed to be dumbfounded and didn't seem to be always thinking, which is why I think he lost to Yang Guo's HIS. It's this non-thinking, non-adaptability that makes Yi Deng able to beat Qiu by half a move.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    In LOCH, Guo Jing nevertheless felt Qiu was on par with Hong Qigong. So I think Jin Yong intended Qiu to be about >=95% of a Great all along. He was simply put to a disadvantage against the main character (by Jin Yong), which many other auxiliary characters have suffered also.
    Perhaps even more damning are Kau Cheen Yan's gross underperformances against Ying Goo. Yes, we all know the psychological reasons behind that, but then again, would a true Great be so easily psyched out like that?

    I think to be a true Great, there needs be satisfied a requirement of mental toughness in addition to physical strength and skill. Guys like the Greats had it; guys like Kau Cheen Yan and the Golden Wheel Monk, not so much.

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    If you take QQR's average performance, it seems more likely he'd LAST half a move.

    God that guy is a pile of fail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    I think to be a true Great, there needs be satisfied a requirement of mental toughness in addition to physical strength and skill. Guys like the Greats had it; guys like Kau Cheen Yan and the Golden Wheel Monk, not so much.
    not to mention Zhang No Avoid.
    Quote Originally Posted by CC
    So what if 1000 arrows are targetted at our wuxia hero? LHC's missile breaking stance can deflect thousands of projectiles in 1 stance and send them back to the enemy. The more arrows the better!

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    Senior Member kyss of the sword's Avatar
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    in a fight, several factors come into play, inner strength, palm skills, light skills. QQR was comparable in inner strength, his palm skills maybe a bit behind but his lightskill was superior to the greats. overral, he only had trouble with ZBT who would trounce any of the greats with his mutual hands combat. GSZ who was considered by JLFW to be in his range was inferior to QQR. GJ, i'm certain surpassed him by the beginning of ROCH. during LOCH, no way to say for sure he was not equal to the greats.
    THE KYSS OF THE SWORD IS DEADLY BUT EXQUSITE
    he's the strongest in history but he's the disciple.
    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/histor...ciple_kenichi/

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